Country of Origin - Who breeds the better dog - A civil discussion ;-) - Page 10

Preston, You have identified two very nice dogs. And your assertions about each of the lines has truth in it. The issue for me is breeder vs owner. For the owner to own the exception, parade it, title it, or show it is fine and I applaud them. But for the breeder they must be more discriminating, IMO. To me its no different than a person who has an OFA Excellent dog out of a litter that had three moderately dysplastic dog. YES, that litter can produce great hips if you want to use the exception as your reference point.......but savy breeders wouldn't touch the dog with a ten foot pole. Another thing, I go to many local, regional and national sport events. I hardly ever see any workingline dogs that are butt ugly anymore. I usually see some nice structural dogs that are performing. There are some, but its not like its the majority whatsoever. There are also many many V rated workingline dogs these days. Many west dogs, DDR, Czech dogs. As a matter of fact, every dog that I own or coown,(5), is workinglines and out of V rated parents. Not as uncommon as people project. We're on the same page in theory,(your presentation is more easily digestible, but as my mother used to say I need to concentrate on the message not the messenger lest I don't learn "nothing"!  Keep posting Guy!!

Preston, You have identified two very nice dogs. And your assertions about each of the lines has truth in it. The issue for me is breeder vs owner. For the owner to own the exception, parade it, title it, or show it is fine and I applaud them. But for the breeder they must be more discriminating, IMO. To me its no different than a person who has an OFA Excellent dog out of a litter that had three moderately dysplastic dog. YES, that litter can produce great hips if you want to use the exception as your reference point.......but savy breeders wouldn't touch the dog with a ten foot pole. Another thing, I go to many local, regional and national sport events. I hardly ever see any workingline dogs that are butt ugly anymore. I usually see some nice structural dogs that are performing. There are some, but its not like its the majority whatsoever. There are also many many V rated workingline dogs these days. Many west dogs, DDR, Czech dogs. As a matter of fact, every dog that I own or coown,(5), is workinglines and out of V rated sire. Not as uncommon as people project. We're on the same page in theory,(your presentation is more easily digestible, but as my mother used to say I need to concentrate on the message not the messenger lest I don't learn "nothing"!  Keep posting Guy!!

Sorry for double post folks, the second post I changed my post to V rated sires as opposed to parents. Couldn't find edit and didn't want to be inaccurate...sorry again for double post.

For future reference, the 'owner edit' button should be under your user name and post count on the far right, Gustav. :)

Excellent post!

Gustav, it's good to hear that WL folks where you are are producing good confirmation.  What part of the world are you located in?  And your assessment of the much greater responsibilities a breeder has are important points that deserve attention. 

The hardest thing with the GSD is the lack of good education availabale for novices and even those who have been in the breed.  The politics and cartel behaviors tend to create delusions (keenl blindness) which cause folks to ignore serious faults in order to attain their designated primary purposes in the breed (usually winning at all costs and selling remaining non competitive stock). 

When top breed wardens and officials fall prey to these factors, the truth gets buried in an avalanche of hype, political expediancy and money. If the top leadership in a breed association has become compromised and has "drank the coolaid" due to their cartel type participation, and this has occurred over a ong period of time and has become "normalized", then it is very hard for GSD enthusiasts to change it.  It can only happen when their is a groundswell of opinion which forces a "tipping point" or critical mass.  Then change can occur.  Some think the fact that the Bundessieger Profung winner was placed select at last years Sieger Show marked a real turning point in the SV.  We shall see.

Only the serious breeders can promote the truth and teach the newbies.  One breeder once said that if he tried to tell new buyers too much about the standard that if they believed him he would have no market for his pets, since Americans want the best conformation ioften above anything else, even temperament or health; or if they didn't believe him he would be raising unnecessary doubts in the potential buyers.  Raising expectations for a buyer that doesn't have the money to pay for a better GSD and wants one can quickly ose interest.

Too much accurate information can perhaps create market restraints, but can raise the pricing for good GSDs from good breeders too.  This is a very old dilemma.  It costs money and time to be honest, and that is why its maybe best if breeders do it as a hobby with dog sales helping to cover some of the costs rather than attempting to make all their expenses and make a big profit. 

Ajax has been one of my favorite dogs for years. 

Preston, Your synopsis is right on target!!

 Nice dogs ...

Woody

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/565571.html

Hutch

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/521073.html

Javir

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/450116.html

Nice black dog..

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/100165/Nolan-vom-alten-Wingertshaus

I am sure there are so so many more examples of dogs with nice conformation and  working character.  There would be no objection to  shortening the gap and breed dogs joining the working in competition for conformation and working ability. M
I would like the American showlines to also close ranks.

I am wondering if Mr. Metz has breed animals  or knows of ASL  that are on par with the universal sieger type dog. If so, then yes, breeding some of the best  in competition with the Europeans!  I need to get out to see more ASL shows I guess.

Samba, the GSDs you list are excellent.  Showline folks as well as working line folks would be wise to carefully consider using these dogs.  And Bundesseiger V Javir Talk Marda has produced some males that have much better conformation than himself with his same excellent temperament.  He appears to be a very good producer so far.

Lest we ignore top producing bitches, consider V Chuckie vom Schloß Laer.  Look at her producing ability.  Look at the superb GSDs she has produced, including the impressive stallion male V Onyx vom Silbersee (USA) and V Hutch Kalten Hardt.  Chuckie is short bodied and the ideal bitch.  A bitch like this is very, very nice, but the key is she can produce structurally sound and correct, top rated and very competitive males.  This makes her valuable to the breed.