Country of Origin - Who breeds the better dog - A civil discussion ;-) - Page 2

Lindenhill's Hayabusa
I still love this dog

I still love this dog

Me to      Here's to hoping he makes it to the thirteen club, I updated his page with a head shot since that seems to be very important on this site

And for Dawn, you might be surprised to know that he was used by a couple of local breeders of imports to "Strengthen" temperament".

regards,

M

I prefer European working lines, they are what a GSD should be IMHO.  I do like German Show line dogs, especially ones that can work.  I haven't seen a good AM Show line dog in years.  I think there are few that AM SL dogs that could do any type of work, or truly defend their home from a determined aggressor.  The healthy ones do make nice pets for those that want low drive dogs.  I think 20 or 30 years ago it was possible to find some that would work, but nearly impossible these days. 

I do agree there are plenty of AM SL GSD's that will bite, but for the wrong reasons and usually in a person's butt as they walk away from the dog. 

The SV standard calls for a dog to be titled, breed surveyed, have an AD (endurance test) and be hip x rayed.  These are things that the AKC doesn't require.  So, yes the dog must do bite work in order to be eligible to be bred under the SV standard, combined with the other requirements and a temperament test. 

You can't even compare the American GSD to German or European GSD's, they are virtually 2 different breeds.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

Thanks Jim, I nice thoughtful debate.

Your observations on the AKC requirements are entirely accurate, however that does not mean american breeders still don't have standards. Many do, and to give some cred to Dawn here, not the largest or most prolific of them

So I do understand where the sentiment comes from.

I am here to tell you however that there are strong Am Bred dogs out there - most of the best breeders know where and who they are. And yes to some degree I do wish there were more requirements then we have today with regard to awarding championships etc.. But even these are not a guarantee of quality

All I can say here is look to the invidual breeders and open your mind to the idea that there could be an am bred you would approve of

As a breeder, I have many examples of dogs performing as desired from a protection and working perspective. Our dogs tend to be medium high on the drive scale.  Unfortunately for me, there isn't a good Sch. group in my area - which may prevent me from one of my goals - which is to title an am. bred dog. Perhaps I will have to send a prospect down to Dawn's neigborhood for training. or Madison.

regards

M

Mike,
I am glad that you still have dogs w/some oomph to them. What about Connie and Steve Miller in Madison, Wi to take your dog to be evaluated for training? I have not seen that in a long time. I had an American Shepherd 25 years ago.  Totally different dog, BUT....A GOOD DOG,  protective and a good brain in her head.

I don't see Mr. York as he has moved to the boonies.

I hope that Hayabusa lives to 13 also for you. Every year that they are around is a gift.

Dawn B.

 

Dawn, I am honest about my dogs strengths and weeknesses, and would be the first to tell you not all would be up to the task of schutzhund that is..(as I learn about yet another bloodline). Hayabusa is of that quality, and his progeny are as well. This is why he is so important to me.

I have a couple of strong bitches (one of higher drive) that we will use frozen on this spring - if successful, they should produce dogs quite capable. I would be happy to take my next prospect, the old guy has had his run.

I wasn't aware of Jim's move, need to touch base with him anyhow to see if he want to do a temperament test up our way in June(I usually play the wierd stranger).

And thanks for the good wishes on the old man.

Are the millers connected with Lynette B. in any way?

regards,

M

Mike,
I think that  Lynette B. knows who the Miller's are,  but are they connected in any way, that I do not know. You would have to ask Kent B. or ask Lynette herself. But it seems like Shepherd people know other Shepherd people. It is a very small world.

The last time I saw Jim Y.  was when I entered  my male  Laser, in the Topline Temperament Test,  and that was in late fall of  08.

Dawn B.

Yes...Lynette & Kent are very familiar with Steve & Connie Miller.....
Dawn....you are correct...."Shepherd people some how...know.. other Shepherd people!"

I may come down to the International show in a few weeks, not to exhibit - just to watch. If I do, you should swing by to have a face to face chat

I just finished a two year stint as Pres. of the GSDC of MSP, during that time I was highly involved in our weekly training activities.

During that time, the worst gsd that came in for remediation was an import(35K). I don't recall the breeding off the top of my head, but had a local import junkie give me the pedigree background.

This was the first time in my life I had experienced a dog that would bite for absolutely no reason, nor did he telegraph that he would. Another local breeder with 50plus years, along with my 30ish examined him and tested him under various scenarios to find out what the trigger was. We couldn't - he did not appear to have one.

This was the worst.

Now, I do not hold that against  all the imports - but I do tuck it away when considering breeding to import lines with the same of simmilar origin, and would weigh that fact accordingly. Conversely I've seen some of the very top US dogs progeny with the afformentioned fear aggression that run away and hide

I guess what I'm emphasising is that you can get good and bad anywhere and it pays to research thoroughly your intended purchase or stud muffin.

regards,

M

Actually, shortly after Max v Stephanitz began standardizing the breed he realized there was less and less of a need for a herding dog, and was the one who realized the potential of the breed to serve military and police.  He assisted in the developement of tests including tracking, obedience and protection, which incidently, was formalized as schutzhund in 1901. 

As far as superiority, I think Jim said it very well and I agree 100%.  Unfortunately, in the USA the breeders deviated, changed the standard, and created the American Show Shepherd.  They most definetly are now two different breeds.  If they do not wish to follow the parent organization, and by that I mean the SV, then they need to change the name because they are no longer German Shepherd Dogs.