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by Slamdunc on 08 February 2010 - 04:02
CSMHMO,
I am here to tell you however that there are strong Am Bred dogs out there - most of the best breeders know where and who they are. And yes to some degree I do wish there were more requirements then we have today with regard to awarding championships etc.. But even these are not a guarantee of quality
All I can say here is look to the invidual breeders and open your mind to the idea that there could be an am bred you would approve of
I know there are strong American bred dogs out there, my dog in the avatar is American bred. He is a working police K9. Yes, I know very well what breeders to look at in the US who are breeding dogs with high drive, strong temperaments and a true desire to work. These dogs are bred here in the US but based on German or Czech lines, not Am show line dogs. These are the breeders in this country that actually work their dogs,compete with their dogs, show their dogs, title their dogs, x ray them and breed to proven producers. I also know several excellent breeders that breed German Show line dogs that work.
So, you saw one aggressive imported dog at your training club, I'm glad you don't hold it against all of the imported dogs out there. I got my first AM SL 25 years ago. When I went to get my next dog I got involved with an AKC club and met a lot of AKC breeders and breeders who were AKC judges. Unfortunately, not one person there understood what a true GSD's temperament should be. They were all big on bashing German lines and teaching their dogs to run in circles. But, I don't judge all AKC GSD people by the dozens I've met over the years. Actually, it was after getting involved in that AKC club that I bought my first German line GSD, I should thank them all. Some were "big" breeders and very well known in AKC circles, I'm sure you would recognize them.
My experience is working dogs and I can't remember seeing a working AM SL dog. I do not know of any Police Dept's that will use an AM SL GSD for a Police dog any more. If you have bred any that are currently working as K9's I'd love to hear about them.
Jim
I am here to tell you however that there are strong Am Bred dogs out there - most of the best breeders know where and who they are. And yes to some degree I do wish there were more requirements then we have today with regard to awarding championships etc.. But even these are not a guarantee of quality
All I can say here is look to the invidual breeders and open your mind to the idea that there could be an am bred you would approve of
I know there are strong American bred dogs out there, my dog in the avatar is American bred. He is a working police K9. Yes, I know very well what breeders to look at in the US who are breeding dogs with high drive, strong temperaments and a true desire to work. These dogs are bred here in the US but based on German or Czech lines, not Am show line dogs. These are the breeders in this country that actually work their dogs,compete with their dogs, show their dogs, title their dogs, x ray them and breed to proven producers. I also know several excellent breeders that breed German Show line dogs that work.
So, you saw one aggressive imported dog at your training club, I'm glad you don't hold it against all of the imported dogs out there. I got my first AM SL 25 years ago. When I went to get my next dog I got involved with an AKC club and met a lot of AKC breeders and breeders who were AKC judges. Unfortunately, not one person there understood what a true GSD's temperament should be. They were all big on bashing German lines and teaching their dogs to run in circles. But, I don't judge all AKC GSD people by the dozens I've met over the years. Actually, it was after getting involved in that AKC club that I bought my first German line GSD, I should thank them all. Some were "big" breeders and very well known in AKC circles, I'm sure you would recognize them.
My experience is working dogs and I can't remember seeing a working AM SL dog. I do not know of any Police Dept's that will use an AM SL GSD for a Police dog any more. If you have bred any that are currently working as K9's I'd love to hear about them.
Jim
by CSMHM0 on 08 February 2010 - 04:02
So, you saw one aggressive imported dog at your training club, I'm glad you don't hold it against all of the imported dogs out there. I got my first AM SL 25 years ago. When I went to get my next dog I got involved with an AKC club and met a lot of AKC breeders and breeders who were AKC judges. Unfortunately, not one person there understood what a true GSD's temperament should be. They were all big on bashing German lines and teaching their dogs to run in circles. But, I don't judge all AKC GSD people by the dozens I've met over the years
No Jim - you have miss read. What I said was that this was the first truly dangerous dog I have ever come across - I've seen many aggressive dogs, thats a very differnent concern.
I'd be curious where your original experience was from, you can send me a PM if you like. I can't say I'm not to surprised, there are just as many folks in the am. bred(or AMSL as you say) community with negative opinions about imports as there are those in favor of the import lines against the AMSL's.
I think this is really at the root of this thread. Neither group seems willing to consder that good dogs exist in both camps.
I certainly do, several breeders I know share that sentiment.
Yes I have placed a couple in law enforcement, the last was in the TSA as an explosive detection animal. And yes you are correct most units don't consder the am. breds anymore.l The primary reason tho, was based on the original acquistion process, which was to take cast offs from the BYOB's and donated animals, then Xray and go from there. They were unwilling to purchase quality animals. Not really a recipe for success - lucky if one in ten were capable.
No Jim - you have miss read. What I said was that this was the first truly dangerous dog I have ever come across - I've seen many aggressive dogs, thats a very differnent concern.
I'd be curious where your original experience was from, you can send me a PM if you like. I can't say I'm not to surprised, there are just as many folks in the am. bred(or AMSL as you say) community with negative opinions about imports as there are those in favor of the import lines against the AMSL's.
I think this is really at the root of this thread. Neither group seems willing to consder that good dogs exist in both camps.
I certainly do, several breeders I know share that sentiment.
Yes I have placed a couple in law enforcement, the last was in the TSA as an explosive detection animal. And yes you are correct most units don't consder the am. breds anymore.l The primary reason tho, was based on the original acquistion process, which was to take cast offs from the BYOB's and donated animals, then Xray and go from there. They were unwilling to purchase quality animals. Not really a recipe for success - lucky if one in ten were capable.
by EUROSHEPHERDS on 08 February 2010 - 05:02
I know a famous breeder who once bred AM gsd to German line.in order to improve the AM breed and then he realize that not only he did not improve the AM breed but he messed up the German line too .
by Slamdunc on 08 February 2010 - 05:02
CSMHMO,
I am originally from Suffolk County Long Island, NY. That is where the AKC club was. There were a couple of good people there, two come to mind. But some were not so great or ethical. My in laws against my advice bought a female AM Sl dog from one of them. I went to look at the puppies and saw the ribbons on the wall and the parents were on premises. I wasn't impressed and told the breeder and my mother in law. But it was quite a sales job and the two woman had horses in common. The breeder asked me what I thought and I said I wouldn't buy one of her dogs. My mother in law went back and bought a cute puppy. The dog was a mess and still is. Afraid of everything, sharp, shy fear biter with genetic problems and terrible conformation. The surprising thing is that the dog is still alive at 11 yrs old, not in good health but alive.
We buy our dogs from vendors and pay about $7,000 currently for a green imported dog. If there were good AM GSD's available I think these vendors would start offering them for sale and save on the shipping and importing. Years ago PD's did take donations but not as much any more. The consensus in the working dog community is that AM GSD's are not bred to work and lack the necessary working ability, drive and character. Much like my in laws dog, nice pet though and that's what they wanted.
Jim
I am originally from Suffolk County Long Island, NY. That is where the AKC club was. There were a couple of good people there, two come to mind. But some were not so great or ethical. My in laws against my advice bought a female AM Sl dog from one of them. I went to look at the puppies and saw the ribbons on the wall and the parents were on premises. I wasn't impressed and told the breeder and my mother in law. But it was quite a sales job and the two woman had horses in common. The breeder asked me what I thought and I said I wouldn't buy one of her dogs. My mother in law went back and bought a cute puppy. The dog was a mess and still is. Afraid of everything, sharp, shy fear biter with genetic problems and terrible conformation. The surprising thing is that the dog is still alive at 11 yrs old, not in good health but alive.
We buy our dogs from vendors and pay about $7,000 currently for a green imported dog. If there were good AM GSD's available I think these vendors would start offering them for sale and save on the shipping and importing. Years ago PD's did take donations but not as much any more. The consensus in the working dog community is that AM GSD's are not bred to work and lack the necessary working ability, drive and character. Much like my in laws dog, nice pet though and that's what they wanted.
Jim
by Red Sable on 08 February 2010 - 11:02
Mike, I read your post, and thought, wow, very well written. Then I looked at the dogs on your website.....
In all honesty and openmindedness, do you think this dog exemplifies what you wrote? I'd like to see her standing square.
Todays title of Select, or Grand Victrix, VA or Seigren, pretty much make me cringe and run the other way. Sorry, no nice way to say it.
The conformation ring is a farce, nothing more than an experiment, or someones whim, or current fad. It makes me sad, and it makes me angry.
Here is a VA dog from 1950.
Quite a difference.
by Sunsilver on 08 February 2010 - 14:02
Mike, I'm curious to know what it is about Dallas that you don't like, other than the fact everyone bred to him, which is never a good thing genetically. PM me if you wish.
I have seen some positive things happening with the American GSD lines. I think the Canadian lines are looking a bit better than the American right now, but they still have a long way to go. Fronts are still too upright, and rears too angulated, producing an unbalanced dog.
The CKC now requires at least one working title before a dog can get its championship. Does the AKC have the same requirement? It's certainly a HUGE step in the right direction!
I have seen some positive things happening with the American GSD lines. I think the Canadian lines are looking a bit better than the American right now, but they still have a long way to go. Fronts are still too upright, and rears too angulated, producing an unbalanced dog.
The CKC now requires at least one working title before a dog can get its championship. Does the AKC have the same requirement? It's certainly a HUGE step in the right direction!
by Keith Grossman on 08 February 2010 - 16:02
"Todays title of Select, or Grand Victrix, VA or Seigren, pretty much make me cringe and run the other way. Sorry, no nice way to say it."
I almost would have agreed with you until you through in your commentary about VA dogs. What do you know about them, again? Do you have any experience with them whatsoever or are you just another internet expert? How many GSD's have you even owned? One?
I almost would have agreed with you until you through in your commentary about VA dogs. What do you know about them, again? Do you have any experience with them whatsoever or are you just another internet expert? How many GSD's have you even owned? One?
by Sunsilver on 08 February 2010 - 16:02
Keith, read the thread before commenting, for pete's sake! They've been breeding GSD's for 30 years!
Oh...you don't consider the AMERICAN lines to be GSDs??
Sorry, I have to disagree. Where did the blood from some other breed get added that they are now NOT GSDs?
Each line has its faults and virtues. I don't like the extreme German showline dogs any more than I like the effeminant, overstretched, overangulated spooky American dogs.
Mike, interesting that you see a big increase in hip dysplasia in the German lines. Could that have anything to do with the fact some of the most popular VA dogs in recent years have had 'a-fast normal' hips?
Go here: sites.google.com/site/jantiedemeyere/HD1HIPS-JanDemeyere.doc and download the Word document to read a very well-researched article on hip dysplasia in the German showlines.
Oh...you don't consider the AMERICAN lines to be GSDs??
Sorry, I have to disagree. Where did the blood from some other breed get added that they are now NOT GSDs?
Each line has its faults and virtues. I don't like the extreme German showline dogs any more than I like the effeminant, overstretched, overangulated spooky American dogs.
Mike, interesting that you see a big increase in hip dysplasia in the German lines. Could that have anything to do with the fact some of the most popular VA dogs in recent years have had 'a-fast normal' hips?
Go here: sites.google.com/site/jantiedemeyere/HD1HIPS-JanDemeyere.doc and download the Word document to read a very well-researched article on hip dysplasia in the German showlines.
by Keith Grossman on 08 February 2010 - 16:02
Sunsilver,
I have read the thread and hundreds of others exactly like it over the past twenty or so years; there is nothing new being said here. I was commenting specifically on Red Sable's assessment of dogs that she knows absolutely nothing about.
And no, I don't consider Am. lines to be GSD's any more than I consider chihuahuas to be wolves, even though they started there.
I have read the thread and hundreds of others exactly like it over the past twenty or so years; there is nothing new being said here. I was commenting specifically on Red Sable's assessment of dogs that she knows absolutely nothing about.
And no, I don't consider Am. lines to be GSD's any more than I consider chihuahuas to be wolves, even though they started there.
by Sunsilver on 08 February 2010 - 17:02
[ot] Keith, is that you skydiving in your avatar picture? Cool! [/ot]
Sorry, I realize now I misunderstood. I thought you were commenting on the OPs knowledge of VA dogs.
I will continue to disagree with you about the American and German line dogs, though. My Ursus/Dallas granddaughter is NOT A MUTT!
Sorry, I realize now I misunderstood. I thought you were commenting on the OPs knowledge of VA dogs.
I will continue to disagree with you about the American and German line dogs, though. My Ursus/Dallas granddaughter is NOT A MUTT!
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