Country of Origin - Who breeds the better dog - A civil discussion ;-) - Page 4

That is me, Sunsilver, and I am a skydiver but that picture is actually me B.A.S.E. jumping off of the New River Gorge Bridge.

I didn't say that your dog's a mutt but I think that at the point in time that American breeders decided to deviate from the German standards for the breed, they should have started calling their dogs American Shepherd Dogs much in the same way the Shiloh breed split off or the American Pit Bull Terrier from the Staffordshire Terrier.

Sort of like what happened to other breeds like the English vs American Cocker, the English vs American Foxhound, Jack Russell vs Parson Russel etc.,  once the same breed, but became so different in this country the stud books were closed and the name changed.   The American Show Shepherd is no longer a German Shepherd, hasn't been one for years.

Keith, I don't know why the terriers split, but the Shiloh split because new blood was added from a dog that was a German Shepherd/Giant Malemute mix, Secret Samson Woo. Obviously, his offspring were no longer purebred GSDs and could not be registered as such with the kennel club.

Don't want to sidetrack this discussion to other breeds, but I'm sure you get my point.    There has been no non-GSD blood added to the American dogs. Well, at least not openly anyway...


[OT] What's B.A.S.E. jumping? Bungee jumping? [/OT]

The terriers are genetically exactly the same dog, APBT's are theoretically purpose or "gamebred" whereas Staffs are bred for show.

B.A.S.E. is an acronym for Buildings, Antennas, Spans (bridges) and Earth formations (cliffs) and refers to parachuting from fixed objects.

Keith, I know as much about them as you do, maybe more, because I'm not looking through biased eyes.  I can see very  clearly.  If you cannot see what is happening to the German dogs, because of the conformation ring, there is no point even discussing this with you.  You obviously are blind as a bat.

I've owned 4 shepherds, one american/german showline cross( great dog in all aspects surprisingly enough),  and fostered and shown one German showline ( would of had to pay me to keep it) two workinglines, and one 3/4 workingline1/4 showline (German) that I have now.

I have owned nothing but shepherds since I left home.  They are my main interest, and I have certainly read and seen enough to know that the showring has been to the detriment of the breed, as it has been with other breeds.

What makes you such an expert?  Please do tell.

Gee, I don't know, Red Sable...could be because I've had GSD's since before you were born and have worked with lots of them?  So you're basing your entire personal knowledge of German show lines on one nebulous dog that wasn't even yours?  Like I said...internet expert.

You had one before I was born?    Highly doubt it but big deal. You are still blind.

 Have you ever had a workingline?  Would you even know what the proper conformation is for a GSD?

Hi,

The standard for structure is a target or one of the goals for breeders to try to achieve.
Conformation or all  judges should reward those that achieve this goal.

I do not like the fact that breeders and judges do not seem to follow the standards set by the creator of the breed.
It does not matter what country or where they live.
What does matter is the selective refining of the gene pool and preserving the health, desired traits or drives, temperment and structure (etc..) of this nobel breed.

I had a VA Cash vom Wildsteiger Land son that was very close to the following  PDB image.
My current German working line pup is also very close.
I don't think all VA dogs or conformation breeders should be lumped into one catagory.

I also agree with Keith and Jim.


Red Sable,
The VA dog from the 50s was a little long in proportion to the height at the withers.

I will let Mike look at his own picture and tell me why he thinks his dog should look like that.
Mike, what is your opinion of this Pedigree Databese image.





Here is some irony for you all.

The first dangerous shepherd that I ever encountered was an American lines fear biter.
He bit more people than I can remember including me.
This dog was also the first shepherd I ever knew of first hand.
(laws were different back then)

The first shepherd I ever owned was from German import lines but the pup was born in the USA.
(Klammle Tollensestrand Haus Shutting lines - I got great dog at the time and didn't know it until later.)
He was smart with strong nerves, was completely safe and would protect.

The first (and closest) club I tried taking him to happened to be an American lines club.
That was the first time I ever met people that were completly rude to a total stranger because I had a German Shepherd.
(I thought they also had German Shepherds at the time)
It was also the first time I became aware of the difference in bloodlines of dogs and the attitudes of people that owned them.
I never went back to that club.

That was a long time ago and since then I have never seen an American lines GSD that I would own.


Lee

I agree with your picture Lee, I wish they all looked like that.  
 

And no, I've never said all VA dogs were of poor conformation, but to say they are  of good conformation just because they are VA is ludicrous.

"You had one before I was born?  Have you ever had a workingline? Would you even know what the proper conformation is for a GSD?"

Unless you're older than 37, yes, yes and yes.