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by Xeph on 11 February 2010 - 08:02
4Pack, I thought the same thing! But I am very glad that Preston so eloquently stated his LIKE for an American dog! An honest man he is. I know he wouldn't say such things about an AmLine if he didn't believe them!
by Red Sable on 11 February 2010 - 11:02
Glad to see you here posting Preston. I have heard many good things about you. I would love to see this dog you speak of.
by AandA on 11 February 2010 - 12:02
Just wanted you to know this and I want again to thank AandA for her help and support.
Ibrahim, hoping I'm not going to disappoint you in any way but I am in fact a him...
Well if the truth be told we are a 'we' - Andy & Annie who are Nelsons owners & hence AandA , but it's Andy who does all the posting. Easier to use works (high speed) bandwidth rather than my home dial up.
No offence taken & glad those links proved useful.
AandA
Ibrahim, hoping I'm not going to disappoint you in any way but I am in fact a him...
Well if the truth be told we are a 'we' - Andy & Annie who are Nelsons owners & hence AandA , but it's Andy who does all the posting. Easier to use works (high speed) bandwidth rather than my home dial up.
No offence taken & glad those links proved useful.
AandA
by sueincc on 11 February 2010 - 12:02
Preston! I have missed you my friend.
by Ibrahim on 11 February 2010 - 12:02
AandA,
Sorry for my terrible mistake, thank you (Andy & Annie) all my respect to you both.
Ibrahim
Sorry for my terrible mistake, thank you (Andy & Annie) all my respect to you both.
Ibrahim
by AandA on 11 February 2010 - 13:02
No worries Ibrahim, but It did make me chuckle because if you could see a photo of me with my beard and receding hair (both sadly greying) you couldn't possibly have made the same mistake 
AandA
AandA
by Sunsilver on 11 February 2010 - 13:02
Preston, I'm bookmarking your post, because it's the best description of the faults of the American lines Shepherd I've ever seen. I knew there was something wrong with their chests, but didn't quite know the correct way to describe it. The term 'false front', which I've heard many times didn't really explain what was involved anatomically.
Thank you for that post, and good to see you posting again!
Thank you for that post, and good to see you posting again!
by Gustav on 12 February 2010 - 14:02
Preston, it is good to see you posting again. I think you are right in your assessment...in that there are some good American dogs that are exceptions!! I will readily acknowledge that!! But you also say that you don't care for most American dogs and even less their temperament. And therein lies the problem...People can't keep singling out exceptions to justify continuing the breeding practices or the dogs that make this nice black dog an "exception". That's crazy, doesn't make sense, and leads to the current condition of the breed, in so that you have to acknowledge he is an exception!! Why would I make breeding decisions or use practices that produces these nice dogs as an "exception". This is crazy!! I know of a few good looking and working American dogs, but they are so few and far between I can't afford to take the chance. JMO
by Mystere on 12 February 2010 - 15:02
Xeph: BRAVISSIMO to you and you're dog! If I can help in your puppy search in any way, please let me know.
Preston!!! Welcome back---good to see you posting again!!
by Samba on 12 February 2010 - 16:02
I have owned three types of GSD, ASL, WGSL and working lines.
If anyone would apply themselves heartily to working endeavors and possibly get some titles on their dogs this would probably improve breeding. At the National, titles on show dogs, that reveal a lot about the character, drive and working characteristics are extremely few and far between. There just is not the general knowledge or the propensity to choose for a balanced dog within the Am. show fancy. It really is not their thing. This is a breed club that recognizes a Rally Obed. title as sufficient for an Award of Excellence rating!
It is simple genetics and what has been selected for over the years. My friend with a grand victrix, went to a bit of working stuff at a national level show with me and he quickly recognized a difference in the WGSL dogs and the working line dogs he saw there. He also commented that the american lines were so different in temperament and drives, in general, that it might be justifiable to call them a different breed at this point. He saw the deviation and split as enormous. Still he maintained that the Americans had improved movement. I was not able to really argue about the strangenss of concentrating on such with a working breed as it was obvious I would get nowhere. Movement is king in the ring.
My friend ended up being attracted to a strong, dark sable of Busecker Schloss breeding who was there to show. He was allowed to walk the dog about in the vicinity and it was obvious his admiration for this animal. He was quite aware that his lines did not carry much of what made up this admirable dog.
Often my American friends point to the roached back WGSL dogs who tend to lift in front and remark how much better their dogs are conformed generally. It is sad that one camp of extremity points at another camp of extremity to say we have the better form of deviation! The problems that have arisen in the German show camp have not helped the cause for the dogs of the fatherland.
So we have one exhibitor at high levels in the American ring who might assert that their dog is closer to the standard and another who might make the claim that their dogs are far enough from the German dog to be labelled a separate breed! And this assessment based on working characteristics.
I love a dog with nice conformation who has the character, drives and temperamant ,and this includes fight drive, to exhibit itself as a GSD should. Whomever can produce me such a dog, Bravo!! Who should I contact? My american showline friends are impressed with my working guy because they don't have dogs like him. Are there pockets of some nicely conformed, working and winning American show lines out there? I would applaud it for certain. Where should I mark my catalog??
When people spend their time and fortunes on breeding animals, it is difficult for them to see the dogs for what they are. If they do not get out and see all aspects of the breed, but rather stay in their cloister comparing like to like, it is even more difficult. At the working dog trial at the National, TWO conformation people came to watch out of the hundreds there. I spent a a good deal of time explaining the test to a lovely fellow. He was amazed and you could tell, again, that this Am showlines person felt his dogs were very different in character than those exhbiting some propensity to do this work.
Yes, there are some nice dogs out there from Am showlines doing asistance work and therapy work mostly. At least the ones I know of. I believe these animals owe their admirable traits to the origin of the breed as a working dog. They perhaps should not take so much credit for the ad
If anyone would apply themselves heartily to working endeavors and possibly get some titles on their dogs this would probably improve breeding. At the National, titles on show dogs, that reveal a lot about the character, drive and working characteristics are extremely few and far between. There just is not the general knowledge or the propensity to choose for a balanced dog within the Am. show fancy. It really is not their thing. This is a breed club that recognizes a Rally Obed. title as sufficient for an Award of Excellence rating!
It is simple genetics and what has been selected for over the years. My friend with a grand victrix, went to a bit of working stuff at a national level show with me and he quickly recognized a difference in the WGSL dogs and the working line dogs he saw there. He also commented that the american lines were so different in temperament and drives, in general, that it might be justifiable to call them a different breed at this point. He saw the deviation and split as enormous. Still he maintained that the Americans had improved movement. I was not able to really argue about the strangenss of concentrating on such with a working breed as it was obvious I would get nowhere. Movement is king in the ring.
My friend ended up being attracted to a strong, dark sable of Busecker Schloss breeding who was there to show. He was allowed to walk the dog about in the vicinity and it was obvious his admiration for this animal. He was quite aware that his lines did not carry much of what made up this admirable dog.
Often my American friends point to the roached back WGSL dogs who tend to lift in front and remark how much better their dogs are conformed generally. It is sad that one camp of extremity points at another camp of extremity to say we have the better form of deviation! The problems that have arisen in the German show camp have not helped the cause for the dogs of the fatherland.
So we have one exhibitor at high levels in the American ring who might assert that their dog is closer to the standard and another who might make the claim that their dogs are far enough from the German dog to be labelled a separate breed! And this assessment based on working characteristics.
I love a dog with nice conformation who has the character, drives and temperamant ,and this includes fight drive, to exhibit itself as a GSD should. Whomever can produce me such a dog, Bravo!! Who should I contact? My american showline friends are impressed with my working guy because they don't have dogs like him. Are there pockets of some nicely conformed, working and winning American show lines out there? I would applaud it for certain. Where should I mark my catalog??
When people spend their time and fortunes on breeding animals, it is difficult for them to see the dogs for what they are. If they do not get out and see all aspects of the breed, but rather stay in their cloister comparing like to like, it is even more difficult. At the working dog trial at the National, TWO conformation people came to watch out of the hundreds there. I spent a a good deal of time explaining the test to a lovely fellow. He was amazed and you could tell, again, that this Am showlines person felt his dogs were very different in character than those exhbiting some propensity to do this work.
Yes, there are some nice dogs out there from Am showlines doing asistance work and therapy work mostly. At least the ones I know of. I believe these animals owe their admirable traits to the origin of the breed as a working dog. They perhaps should not take so much credit for the ad
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