BIG heads, super dark sables, super hips. That is the problem - Page 15

Answers to Christopher Smith
: 
1. Soft ears 1 or 2 ears  . Is  recessive gene. Period. Sometimes the dominant gene  takes over one ear and not the other. Just like if you breed black dog and white dog  sometimes you get spotted dog.
2. Do  not know the answer.
3. Once it is in the blood line it depends how far back on the pedigree it is. I would say that it is possible that all GSD have it there. It just depends how far back. The charts I have produced are only 1st and second generation chart. It probably is in dogs which even were not GSDs That is before Horand v Grafrath.
4. Basic Mendelian Genetics. Mendel was a Czech (Moravian) Monk. Google it.
 You can start here. Good luck!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

I have no idea if it works that way or not regarding ears, but my question remains:  Besides not breeding the pup with the floppy ear, do you still breed the dog that produced the pup with the floppy ear?

darylehret,
I don't know if you directed your question at Hans or in general, so here would be my answer:
Yes, I would breed a dog (Ud) that has produced floppy ears (dd) to a line/dog (hopefully UU) because it is very shortsighted to eliminate too many dogs. You restrict the gene pool too much! Of course, this is provided only if this dog has other strong traits to bring to the table. If not, then I would eliminate this dog because there are always better dogs out there. I would also eliminate this dog if it consistenly produced this problem over and over again, not just with one breeding partner.
In my case, I did not eliminate my female (Ud) who produced that litter with the two floppy eared dogs (dd). This female had 5 litters in her breeding career and never ever again produced an ear problem with any other male she was bred to. On the contrary, all puppies usually had their ears up by 12 to 14 weeks of age. It should also be mentioned that all males were from different lines. The one she had that ear problem with comes from a line known to produce soft ears. It creeps up every now and then, unfortunately.
Chris

And if the ratio of unaffected progeny vs. affected progeny were something like 50 to 1, with something more polygenetic with required environmental preconditions, such as the tail-chasing behavior?

50 to 1 is an acceptable ratio, most definitely. But when it comes to the other trait such as tail-chasing behavior I would have to pass. Admittedly, that scares me. I have never had to deal with it myself but I heard and read that this is tough to deal with and I feel for anybody who has done it. It seems to be "obsessive" behavior which is also a genetic problem, isn't it? You feel so helpless when the dog gets lost in that obsessive and repetitive pattern and it is hard to snap out of it. I have an autistic child and know how difficult that can be, even though my guy "only" has low spectrum autism but he certainly shows these traits. He obsesses with hand movements, jumping in one spot and closing doors.
But generally speaking, when it comes to finding a suitable dog, one should never loose sight of the overall picture and/or appearance of an individual because it is easy to get lost in details. This is what an old breeder and judge once told me and it kind of stuck with me. He meant it in regards to structure but it can be applied to temperament as well I think! The individual breeder or handler has to decide what he or she can live with.
Chris

So you pass on just the tailchaser, or also the dogs that produced the tailchaser?

Sigh, darylehret,
please read my post above regarding the floppy ear issue!
I will try to get more specific:
When you breed and try to keep up with good producing lines and popular sires, you will come across information on traits being produced, negative and positive. As you pointed out in a previous post yourself, there is no such thing as a perfectly producing sire. And as I mentioned in my last post, it is a mistake to get lost in details and loose the overall picture but every breeder has to decide what he or she can live with.
Now, very seldom will one come across information that a popular sire has produced a disturbing trait in just one single puppy, unless it happened in one's immediate circle of friends. If that is the case, I would not necessarily blame it on the sire. Who is to say that it is not the dam's problem? Now, if it is discussed through the grapevine that this particular sire has a tendency or is known to produce this problem, when there is definitely more to it when just one puppy or a few (50 to 1). And yes, I would then stay away from this dog. In my opinion there are plenty of other stud dogs available from the same lines, so I do not see a reason to restrict myself to the problematic one.  Of course, I can see the point that some people are geographically and financially restricted in their choice of stud dogs, but I am not since I usually fly to Germany to get my females bred. And if for some reason I can't find the time, when I do not breed rather than making sacrifices. Again, this is just me. BTW, I can't resist throwing that into the discussion as well: Why do you think a lot of dogs get sold in Germany after being used for breeding just a short time? One of the reasons surely is what they produce. For me, it is always a red flag when I read ads emphasizing the sale to foreign countries. Out of sight, out of mind!
But now, out of curiosity: Why are you emphasizing so much on that tail chasing problem, which for me is a serious indication of obsessive-compulsive disorder? In my opinion, a dog like that should never be bred! Are you trying to weigh your options or choices in using such a dog?
Chris

Tail chasing in my opinion is a learned behavior caused by stress. Same as elephant rocking his head L  to R, L to R, .... and   Tiger making all day  figures "8" if confined to small space for their energy, social makeup and normal psychological stress levels.
   Many people these days want a highly prey driven dog and then they lock it into a confines of a kennel. That will do it. I have had several dogs which were fine and then they were sold and problem started. When I investigated I have found out that the highly driven dog was predominantly or all the time in a small kennel. I have a horrifying case of a  breeder (still advertising on PDB) who would rather then send the dog back   put such dog down before paying me for it.  I will stress that the dog was fine in our environment and for several months in the "breeders" environment and dog was 2 years before this behavior started. I am just saying this so that people do not blame dog but themselves or the environment the dog is in or as in.  Such behavior may start somewhere else and then become compulsive and almost incurable. When I am raising a young dog and see him/her just to look at their tail I say firm NO and after  a while they have no such problem that is if it is caught early and consistently. That is before it becomes compulsive.
 I have had literally risen hundreds of  dogs and none(!!!!) ended up chasing a tail.
Prager Hans

OK, tail-chasing aside, because not everyone agrees on it's genetic connection, but THIS:  Do you discriminate against only the dog that carries the phenotype, or also against the one that carries the genotype?  Most traits are complex, meaning multifactoral in that they are polygenic and also in many cases a result of environmental conditions.  That means you will often find "occasional" or infrequent cases of undesireable characteristics, and in pretty much any bloodline or producer.

I will analyze the situation.  Are we talking hips or ears? For example if the dog produces 10%-20% of bad hips I will not eliminate it from breeding. If the dog produces 55% of HD then I will. If the dog will produce 10%-20% of floppy ears I will eliminate it from the breeding. Why ? because nationalaverage of bad hips is 40%- 50%+-

 If the dog produces one pup with floppy ears out of several litters with more then one stud, than it means the gene is too far back to worry about it too much.
I will eliminate the phenotype pup for sure and probably  the rest of the pups too from that particular breeding. I would not eliminate the mother.  I would, breed her to different stud and if all the pups have ears up then I would breed pup from that litter.  Reasoning being is that the mother has that gene probably too far back too worry about it.
If the dog produces more then one pup with floppy ears  or consistently produces pups with floppy ears in different breedings  than it means that it has this problem close to the front of the pedigree (and the other parent too).  I then would eliminate both parents and their pups from further breeding.


By the way if someone thinks that chasing tail is genetic then I would submit that everything is genetic....even where your leg brakes when someone hits you with a baseball bat.  Some dogs if stressed out will spin and some will not. Are they better dogs with stronger nerves? That depends on the drive of the dog and other factors which may be desirable. I'd say do not put the dog into abusive environment and he will not spin. If the dog spins even in perfect environment past and present ( I have never seen that) then he should be eliminated from the breeding because he/she is not able to deal with normal environment.  
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com