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by noddi on 25 June 2010 - 07:06
Jim h....as i said before yu are flogging a dead horse with Goldie 12.yu cant make this person believe that there,s no such breed as alsatian(tho.some say they refer to them as gsds)as to them they have THE CORRECT TYPE(as they often state in their critiques)and the rest of us(the world wide)HAVE THE INCORRECT TYPE.i cannot and dont believe this poll by DOG WORLD will prove anything as there,s nuthin to stop people from either side voting more than once.its probably better for us to inundate the KC with letters as well as voting on your breed club(s)poll,which someone has said is wot the kc have requested.this will be how the true vote will emerge.ONE VOTE PER PERSON.I would also suggest petitions at the remaining breed club shows both champ.and open are set up for people to sign and those on the working side should also be approach,as this does concern them and their opinion sought.pet people NO,as it will not be a major concern of theirs.to some they are gsd and to others alsatians,as a lady yesterday told her daughter that chiki was an alsatian.i was i admit a bit peeved and disgusted but the lady knew no better.GOLDIE 12 IF THE NAME IS REMOVED THEN YOUR BREED????? ALSATIAN WILL BE AS DEAD AS THE DODO.ITS NEARLY THERE ANYWAY ISNT IT AS MORE AND MORE ARE SEEING THE LIGHT AND USING THESE CRIPPLES AS YU CALL THEM.GET REAL YU HAVE DOGS THAT ARE SO FAT AND SHORT LEGGED THAT THERE TUMMIES ALMOST TOUCH THE GROUND AND FOR SOUNDNESS OF TEMPERAMENT ,WELL DONT LET ME GO THERE BEFORE I UPSET YU EVEN MORE.i,d rather have an animal thats a little hocky and unsound in hind action than one thats afraid of its own shadow and pees if anyone goes a little too near and dont threaten me as all on here knows its true as we,ve all seen it.sorry for the rant,BUT THIS BREED IS OF GERMAN ORIGEN AND IS CALLED WORLDWIDE......GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG,,,,,,,ITS ONLY HERE IN THE UK THATS IT S MISTAKENLY CALLED ALSATIAN BY A MINORITY OF PEOPLE.EVEN THE AKC TYPE IN THE USA IS KNOWN AS A GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG.Carole S.
by Videx on 25 June 2010 - 07:06
With the development of the GSDL/WUSV GSD System in Great Britain, the Kennel Club and the Alsatian is now exactly where they belong - very much on the "sidelines", exactly where they belong and where they will remain. They have nothing to offer our breed.
We should now ignore them, they are simply an irritation.
We should now ignore them, they are simply an irritation.
by noddi on 25 June 2010 - 07:06
have to agree with yu there David.i am surely very irritated,but not all with the correct type want to go down the german way of showing,some want to do both systems and some like your good self(wonder wot morons will pick this statement up)wish only to participate in the german system.it is these persons i,m thinking off.where will they go if the kc show scene goes mainly the alsatian way.they will have virtually nowt.if the anomoly of alsatian is removed from the breed title,then surely they have to change their clubs title as the alsatian name will be defunct.then change will have to come as they,ll be the laughing stock even more to the rest of the world and to some extent the uk.joe public will see the error of their ways and that they have been conned in the past.most of joe public believe that L/C are GSDS and S/C are alsatians.Carole S.
by noddi on 25 June 2010 - 07:06
just been on the link.....yes858.........against332......time 8.30am.
by jaymesie51 on 25 June 2010 - 07:06
Goldie12 this is what you said in your last post It will be the people left under the KC banner that will continue to have issues, Judges will continue to put up unsound dogs, their mates,( who will return the favour at a later date) dippy & roach backs etc etc and unless addressed by the KC it will continue.
Now can you tell me why you would want to show your dogs under such circumstances, if as you would have us believe that your dogs are of the correct type then why not show at the regional events being held all over the country the Scottish one is next on the 7th August enter your dogs and come and enjoy showing the only criteria you need is tattoo/microchip if your dogs are adults then they must be tested and as you have said your dogs are tested so it should be all go come on i know you will enjoy it and whats more your dogs will be graded
jim h
Now can you tell me why you would want to show your dogs under such circumstances, if as you would have us believe that your dogs are of the correct type then why not show at the regional events being held all over the country the Scottish one is next on the 7th August enter your dogs and come and enjoy showing the only criteria you need is tattoo/microchip if your dogs are adults then they must be tested and as you have said your dogs are tested so it should be all go come on i know you will enjoy it and whats more your dogs will be graded
jim h
by Penny on 25 June 2010 - 08:06
Goldie12 says
If you or i had movement like some of these dogs then we would be seeing an orthorpedic surgeon for a double knee replacement and all the risks that go with major surgery.
I do agree, like allof the forward thinking people moving to a better way of showing, that loose hocks are not desirable, and to be penalised and carefully bred against -
however - yourt point above Goldie tells me you know very little about either loose hocks or H.D.
Try getting any surgeon on the NHS or private care do a double knee replacement or single if you were not in any pain.... and if you werent in any pain how would you go to that surgeon for the op ???
Now look at HD - you dont need me to quote what suffering the dogs and the owners go through do you?
Which shall we attest more importance to? Shall we go with the KC and talk loose hocks, safely cos it doesnt cost them any registration money - or do we go with pro-active GSD folk who are looking at both issues, and DEALING with HD by way of scientific scrutiny. Dealing with loose hocks is a less dynamic approach. It is recognition, breeding, watching generations, improving on each and is taking time - but being aware is the very first step... and we are past the being aware stage already....
Ask a Joe public owner.
a) do you want a dog with HD
b ) do you want a dog that walks with loose hocks and isnt in pain.
Also, give some thought to the fact that many "loose hocked pups" grow up to be very sound. When and where do YOU start to concern yourself that your dog is loose. Mo.
If you or i had movement like some of these dogs then we would be seeing an orthorpedic surgeon for a double knee replacement and all the risks that go with major surgery.
I do agree, like allof the forward thinking people moving to a better way of showing, that loose hocks are not desirable, and to be penalised and carefully bred against -
however - yourt point above Goldie tells me you know very little about either loose hocks or H.D.
Try getting any surgeon on the NHS or private care do a double knee replacement or single if you were not in any pain.... and if you werent in any pain how would you go to that surgeon for the op ???
Now look at HD - you dont need me to quote what suffering the dogs and the owners go through do you?
Which shall we attest more importance to? Shall we go with the KC and talk loose hocks, safely cos it doesnt cost them any registration money - or do we go with pro-active GSD folk who are looking at both issues, and DEALING with HD by way of scientific scrutiny. Dealing with loose hocks is a less dynamic approach. It is recognition, breeding, watching generations, improving on each and is taking time - but being aware is the very first step... and we are past the being aware stage already....
Ask a Joe public owner.
a) do you want a dog with HD
b ) do you want a dog that walks with loose hocks and isnt in pain.
Also, give some thought to the fact that many "loose hocked pups" grow up to be very sound. When and where do YOU start to concern yourself that your dog is loose. Mo.
by Videx on 25 June 2010 - 08:06
Carole S.
I do NOT want only the German SV System here in Great Britain.
it is very important for our German Shepherd Dog enthusiasts here in Great Britain to FULLY understand exactly what our GSDL/WUSV System is offering.
I suggested that the first British Sieger must include ADULT CLASSES (male & female).
The reason was very simple and very deliberate, the Adult Classes would offer a BRITISH SYSTEM running alongside a GERMAN SYSTEM, in ONE combined GSD EVENT.
Our GSDL/WUSV GSD SYSTEM has fully adopted exactly the same principle - CHOICE.
The Adult Classes will remain - the Working Classes will remain, and ALL other classes can be entered by ANYONE who wishes to follow the BRITISH SYSTEM (without working qualifications and without a Korung) and they can be entered by anyone who wishes to follow the GERMAN SV SYSTEM in its entirety.
The GSDL/WUSV System introduced by the GSD League is without any doubt a DUAL SYSTEM (British & German SV)
This DUAL SYSTEM is the future for our GSD here in Great Britain.
CHOICE is the future for our GSD enthusiasts here in Great Britian
The GSD League has every intention of retaining the DUAL SYSTEM.
The GSD League has every intention of retaining the ADULT CLASSES.
David Payne
I do NOT want only the German SV System here in Great Britain.
it is very important for our German Shepherd Dog enthusiasts here in Great Britain to FULLY understand exactly what our GSDL/WUSV System is offering.
I suggested that the first British Sieger must include ADULT CLASSES (male & female).
The reason was very simple and very deliberate, the Adult Classes would offer a BRITISH SYSTEM running alongside a GERMAN SYSTEM, in ONE combined GSD EVENT.
Our GSDL/WUSV GSD SYSTEM has fully adopted exactly the same principle - CHOICE.
The Adult Classes will remain - the Working Classes will remain, and ALL other classes can be entered by ANYONE who wishes to follow the BRITISH SYSTEM (without working qualifications and without a Korung) and they can be entered by anyone who wishes to follow the GERMAN SV SYSTEM in its entirety.
The GSDL/WUSV System introduced by the GSD League is without any doubt a DUAL SYSTEM (British & German SV)
This DUAL SYSTEM is the future for our GSD here in Great Britain.
CHOICE is the future for our GSD enthusiasts here in Great Britian
The GSD League has every intention of retaining the DUAL SYSTEM.
The GSD League has every intention of retaining the ADULT CLASSES.
David Payne
by noddi on 25 June 2010 - 08:06
David,sorry i,ve probably not made myself clear.i,m not as eloquent in my written wording as yu.i realise that the new GSDL/WUSV sytem allows for animals who,s owners do not wish to do the protection phase.that,s no problem for those who are at present showing at germanic/general ch.shows.the people i,m speaking of ARE THOSE WHO DO NOT WISH TO SHOW THE GERMANIC WAY.I WILL USE THE TERM IF I MAY MIDDLE OF THE ROAD PEOPLE.sorry folks for classing some of yu in this classification,i know yu have correct animals.,but yu do not like the frantic going ons at the german shows.where will this fraction go?????,if the kc go the alsatian way and the gen.ch.shows put up judges that prefer the alsatian type.they wont want to waste their money entering either type shows.i would also say that there are more of these than there are alsatianist and maybe slightly more or equal to those who frequent the germanic shows and lets face it,most as i would like to do both.hope it more clearer David.unfortunately i express my self better vocally than by the written word.CaroleS.
by Videx on 25 June 2010 - 09:06
Maybe the answer is for the Kennel Club to encourage the General Championship Shows to promote the correct International German Shepherd by
1) appointing GSD Judges and to stop appointing Alsatian Judges.
2) Accepting that "the Gray's" "middle of the road GSD" are simply mediocre GSD and they should not be encouraged.
3) That NO outside attraction will take place at General Championship Shows.
4) That a very simple and sedentary form of exhibiting is established for GSD at General Championship Shows.
5) Identify that it is normal and not a disadvantage for owners to handle their entries at such shows.
The KEY to our GSD future is offering CHOICE for enthusiasts of our correct GSD
1) appointing GSD Judges and to stop appointing Alsatian Judges.
2) Accepting that "the Gray's" "middle of the road GSD" are simply mediocre GSD and they should not be encouraged.
3) That NO outside attraction will take place at General Championship Shows.
4) That a very simple and sedentary form of exhibiting is established for GSD at General Championship Shows.
5) Identify that it is normal and not a disadvantage for owners to handle their entries at such shows.
The KEY to our GSD future is offering CHOICE for enthusiasts of our correct GSD
by Abby Normal on 25 June 2010 - 09:06
I've voted to drop the name alsatian. I tried to vote again, to see if their system works, and it did not offer the chance to vote again, I would guess unless you do it from another IP address.
In some ways I agree with Goldie though, what's in a name? The word alsatian is familiar to the GP and only within breed circles is it recognised to denote an entirely different type of dog. I voted not to keep it because it was only ever meant to be temporary. In fact, I have never seen, when out and about an 'alsatian' of the type we are talking about here - not ever, honestly. I've seen what I would call pet dog quality types, those that have a shape more synonymous with the working lines, but more averag', and a few clearly showline types. So to the GP a GSD is that or an alsatian. I have to admit I always correct someone that calls a GSD an alsatian, but really at the heart of things it isn't a big issue.
Really, the way things are going I don't think that the UK will continue to have a choice in showing the GSD except through the GSDL. If attendances at KC shows continue to decline at such a rapid rate then maybe the KC will decide not to allocate CC's permanently, thus disenfranchising the GSD in the UK. They won't lose their registration money, people will still need to register their stock with them, so they don't really have so much to lose. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see how this situation can continue.
Maybe that is a good thing and the breed would then only be able follow only the WUSV style of showing, with all the health benefits that it brings, but it sure needs to get some recognition if the UK representatives of the breed are to have any clout in the show world. My other worry with the german style of showing is that it is so intensive (rightly so)in it's requirements, which ultimately, we must surely adopt in totality eventually. It could mean that a lot of people who do have really good dogs and love to show, cannot afford the time or money to pursue it long term. Some people prefer to handle their own dog, but how many could handle (just for example) off lead gaiting themselves? If we are not careful, it will become the province of a prviliged few, and we will lose so many good dogs from the bloodlines in the process, not to mention some very good people in the breed. OK GSDL offer 'normal' classes, but again there is no proper recognition, so OK it's fun, but it doesn't allow anyone to achieve any recognised status. I would imagine that it could almost create a feeling of second class citizen, failing to show to 'real' German standards. There needs to be proper recognition for this to fully take the place of the KC CC's, and soon. As I understand it, it is only the KC in any given country that can award titles? Perhaps I'm wrong, I stand to be corrected, but I think this issue needs addressing by the GSDL for UK exhibitors, just in case the KC do pull the plug.
Why is it that anyone who criticises loose hocks or GSD structure etc is branded as a KC rep? It's plain silly - you might just as well stick your fingers in your ears and go LALALA if you don't want to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Just because people don't agree it doesn't mean they are a KC rep, or an alsatianist or anything else. The SV (finally) recognise it as a problem, why can't we do the same, without getting all defensive about it?
BTW HD scoring is of course paramount for breeding. HOWEVER, it does not mean that you will get a puppy with good hips, as implied in Penny's question. Studies have shown that little has changed in the percentage of HD cases in all the years that the hip screening schemes in various countries have been in place. The other misconception is that dogs with HD will all be crippled. Clinically this is not always the case,
In some ways I agree with Goldie though, what's in a name? The word alsatian is familiar to the GP and only within breed circles is it recognised to denote an entirely different type of dog. I voted not to keep it because it was only ever meant to be temporary. In fact, I have never seen, when out and about an 'alsatian' of the type we are talking about here - not ever, honestly. I've seen what I would call pet dog quality types, those that have a shape more synonymous with the working lines, but more averag', and a few clearly showline types. So to the GP a GSD is that or an alsatian. I have to admit I always correct someone that calls a GSD an alsatian, but really at the heart of things it isn't a big issue.
Really, the way things are going I don't think that the UK will continue to have a choice in showing the GSD except through the GSDL. If attendances at KC shows continue to decline at such a rapid rate then maybe the KC will decide not to allocate CC's permanently, thus disenfranchising the GSD in the UK. They won't lose their registration money, people will still need to register their stock with them, so they don't really have so much to lose. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't see how this situation can continue.
Maybe that is a good thing and the breed would then only be able follow only the WUSV style of showing, with all the health benefits that it brings, but it sure needs to get some recognition if the UK representatives of the breed are to have any clout in the show world. My other worry with the german style of showing is that it is so intensive (rightly so)in it's requirements, which ultimately, we must surely adopt in totality eventually. It could mean that a lot of people who do have really good dogs and love to show, cannot afford the time or money to pursue it long term. Some people prefer to handle their own dog, but how many could handle (just for example) off lead gaiting themselves? If we are not careful, it will become the province of a prviliged few, and we will lose so many good dogs from the bloodlines in the process, not to mention some very good people in the breed. OK GSDL offer 'normal' classes, but again there is no proper recognition, so OK it's fun, but it doesn't allow anyone to achieve any recognised status. I would imagine that it could almost create a feeling of second class citizen, failing to show to 'real' German standards. There needs to be proper recognition for this to fully take the place of the KC CC's, and soon. As I understand it, it is only the KC in any given country that can award titles? Perhaps I'm wrong, I stand to be corrected, but I think this issue needs addressing by the GSDL for UK exhibitors, just in case the KC do pull the plug.
Why is it that anyone who criticises loose hocks or GSD structure etc is branded as a KC rep? It's plain silly - you might just as well stick your fingers in your ears and go LALALA if you don't want to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Just because people don't agree it doesn't mean they are a KC rep, or an alsatianist or anything else. The SV (finally) recognise it as a problem, why can't we do the same, without getting all defensive about it?
BTW HD scoring is of course paramount for breeding. HOWEVER, it does not mean that you will get a puppy with good hips, as implied in Penny's question. Studies have shown that little has changed in the percentage of HD cases in all the years that the hip screening schemes in various countries have been in place. The other misconception is that dogs with HD will all be crippled. Clinically this is not always the case,
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