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by Don Corleone on 23 January 2011 - 14:01
by troublelinx on 23 January 2011 - 14:01
Jeff and alpha
I agree with what both of you. Alpha I never thought of it that way but what you say makes perfect sense.
However if we are giong to use terms, a dog is not "civil". Even if he is to focus on the person and not equiptment the dog is still not civil, he may be defensive though at that point in time. The helper may choose to work the dog civilly. As in work the dog with no equiptment or work the dog with the sleeve behind the helpers back so the the dog will focus on the helper himself. So to recap... civil is very much the behavior of the helper not the bahavior of the dog. If we are to use terms correctly civil and defense are not interchangeable words.
I have often heard people (never a dog trainer...yet) use civil as a drive the dog posesses, this is incorrect.
To the OP I think what you may mean is... how common is it that gsd working line adult dogs can react in a defensive manner towards other people?
My personal experience is that of the three gsd I have owned had all had this quality, one of which was totally fearless and attacked me and my wife with nice full mouth bites(jeese, you would think you would be able to hug your wife w/o her being biten or play ball with your own dog... well not with every dog). All of mine have been west german. My dogs while being protective need a reason to respond in an agressive manner. These reasons include being near the car, house, if you are invited then they are non agressive. My current gsd is a bit more defensive minded but safe and can be peted although she is totally indeferent unless peting comes from me or wifey.
My sister on the other hand has 2 gsds' one 1/2 sister to one of mine, this one could be with enough training but at this point is a prey driven nut. The other one is a czech dog, police canidate washout, is a neurotic messbut not protective and scared of his own shadow. A real pain in the a$$ dog with very high energy.
by Don Corleone on 23 January 2011 - 14:01
by sable59 on 23 January 2011 - 16:01
by troublelinx on 23 January 2011 - 17:01
Don
When I see dogs work I see them work in verying degrees of certain drives. Even in the same dog. For example My current dog is high prey drive. Usually she will give the high pitched bark the one that indicates that she is in prey. But she is not 100% in prey drive there is a certain percentage that is in defense. Although she targets well she is not hooked on the equiptment. She has more than once passed the sleeve on the arm to bite flesh. These were spots that she was taught to target when working the suit. I would describe this dog as prey driven with a pronounced defensive side.
As far as drives go and bite work I mainly see 2 drives prey and defence, I dont buy much into fight drive as it really is just another way of saying the dog is in high prey and high defense at the same time. and civil is not a drive.
Civil just means working a dog w/o equiptment or in a manner that makes the dog focus on the man. Trainers are modulating between prey and defense, depending on body movement or lack there of. Defense or prey is what we motivate the dog to do as result of our posture, movement, eye contact. We communicate to the dog through body language.
Do you think that because the dog will bite the person the dog is civil?
No such thing.
by troublelinx on 23 January 2011 - 17:01
Civil agitation- when the agitator is unarmed and unprotected, he agitates the dog using threatening body jestures, particularly hand movements anf facial grimaces.
by troublelinx on 23 January 2011 - 17:01
Do you have a web site for your kennel or do you breed on a smaller scale?
by Jeff Oehlsen on 23 January 2011 - 18:01
I just see one that is stronger than the other, or was raised different. There are a lot of things like how a dog is brought up that can affect it as well.
Most dogs figure out that people are not going to come into their little circle ( when it is "trained" ) and then appear to be all that. If the dog will nail you first time out, then you can call it "civil" if you want.
Most "civil" training goes through the same motions as everything else, and the dog will take a bite on the arm presented with the super secret hidden sleeve, simply because you have gotten the dog into drive and went through the same motions.
To me, a solid definition of "civil" is a dog that will bite the crap out of you because you do not belong there. No training needed. No reason other than you are not supposed to be there needed either.
It is a really really LOW percentage of dogs that I think are civil dogs. They are not afraid of you. I am not talking about the dancing around fear biter.
by Slamdunc on 23 January 2011 - 20:01
I wouldn't even know where to start to comment on this thread.
by Ruger1 on 23 January 2011 - 20:01
Don, Yes I see that ....However, I made that post after I had taken my sleeping tablet and ...well.....I should have went to bed.....I was only a little confused...But, it was good article....
Deanna,,,: )
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