how common is civil drive? - Page 3

WEll big breeders/trainers like eurosport and a few others use the term "civil drive"

Don .. i did crtique a video .. even addressed you in regards to it .. it was on the ' General Forum ' which you visit on this PDB .. as a matter of fact .. ibrahim noted that i made a very good expose on the change of prey to defense .. the post was a question if i remember correctly ' What drive is this dog in '[ regarding a posted video] ' or something to that effect. I use those terms Don .. because .. that is what the folks on here seem to only understand in regards to understanding how they do protection work and most cannot step outside of what they know ..if something ddoesn't fit into their schema of things they become very arrogant and argumentative .. that is why i refer to your similar words. i had a Larus V Batu  son .. show line for those reading . My friend was working him on a sleeve .. he had a great fast entry /hard bite .. my friend chuckled at him during and out . the dog sat like a statue .. my friend threw away the sleeve and literally laughed in his face .. my larus son .. because of the taunt and ridicule he  went to take another bite from him , almost got his legthis dog had defense too BUT he is mannered !! he is not CIVIL in the defintion of looking to be overly aggressive . a killer dog. . i let go of the leash [ on purpose]  and .in a simple normal tone ,  one word from me ... ..  the dog went to my friend rubbed against him and sat rubbing against  to be petted. !! Now my point .. in the defintion commoly used about CIVIL .. this is not exemplary of a civil dog , one that is ready , willing and able to do someone in with or without protection gear. if i am not enunciating .. the point is:  civil also denotes the INTENTION of the dog in regards to  it's ABILITY and MOTIVATION ..  .. [ learned or unlearned [non-taught] response .prey dogs can learn to bite without equipment.. very very social dogs can bite without equipment..the equipment present or not does not define a civil vs, noncivil dog.  But does the dog look to bite / and HURT you whether there is equipment or not ?? How does the dog percieve peole .. is it highly suspicious of people and at the slightest provocation will it attack . does it solve problems and conflict [ even if it is percieved and not really present] by biting/ aggressing? these are the criteria IMO i use to see whether a dog is civil or not .. what's the capability of the dog in regards to intention/ motivation/teperament and training.. just my opinion .. who cares if there is a sleeve or not ...

please alphapup seperate your paragraphs and put spaces inbetween them people wont read it like that

yes "troublelinx" i have a web site. PM me. poison, sometimes i get in a big way and do the same.

Trouble, so how do you define a dog that will or will not bite without equipment?


You just did.

CS, well played, sir. I guess I should have said, what term do you use for that. I would much rather use one word for everything instead of having to explain every detail. Alpha, I asked you to explain a video without using those phrases.

Well, i for one want the 'civil" dog on my side and going for the bad guy.... 

Maybe we are getting a little too technical here? And I do believe some have different definitions or visions of "CIVIL' Maybe it comes from reading, our trainers, our schools or passed down from who we know or who we respect? I'm not sure? Pieces of what different people stated make sense but not all of certain individuals. I really listen to the majority, I could list their names but at times that seems to offend some. I stated in one of my very first posts about  the irony the word "CIVIL" from humans to dogs.

The "CIVIL' as I know is the dog being mean as shit, aggressive, will bite you period! Equipment, no equipment. Going ballistic when you come near the vehicle,come near him, come near the handler. If you're not supposed to be there he/she will not let you forget it. Wants the sleeve, wants the decoy! Doesn't give a rats ass about the sleeve and WANTS the decoy! A dog that is not yours that when you look at it you think literally that the dog is crazy BUT the owner/handler tells you differently.

Slam,come on comment!

Don
A phrase that I peridocially hear to describe such a dog is "a dog with an edge".  Meaning that the dog is quick to fire up with little provocation.  I would persnally not have this dog around children who were not part of the family, or where not one of his pack members, so to speak.

Now on the other hand I whitnesses a malinois at a PSA trial with LOTS of fight in him.  This dog did not target well at all.  The first decoy he bite he delivered the bite lower on the arm.  In his head maby he thought he would get his hand.  The decoy bent dhis back  just a little.  In a flash he delivered a bite to his neck.  Now the decoy is on his back.  No material is in the dogs full mouth bite,  just a decoy neck.  The decoy held the dog into the bite to stabilixe the dogs head,  keep it from shaking.  The owner could not get the dog off the bite.  Some other decoys delivered a few fingers in the dogs butt.  Eventually the dog let go however even still it took a few moments.

Now that the first decoy was on his way to the hospital, the second decoy had to be cautious.  this time dog goes for the same lower arm area.  Almost knocked the decoy down then the dog transfers to the arm pit area.  This dog was a fighter going in for the kill, for real.

After the trial I spoke with the owner.  the owner said that although his dog will fire up in a non training area/situation the dog was totally friendly and that kids unfamiliar with the dog could pet him, other people who ever.  however when its time to work he is serious.  This dog did not have an edge to him, nor was he a defensive dog, I would describe him as "not equiptment orientated"

Trouble, you and I have different ideas. I think I'm done with this thread. The last one kept going in circles.