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by duke1965 on 27 December 2011 - 21:12
most BUT NOT ALL are mixed , my breeding program is still without bringing in todays west sportdogs , and so are few others
by Hukka on 27 December 2011 - 23:12
skyhorse, hope you realize that the bottom part of Karo's pedigree here in incorrect.
by Prager on 28 December 2011 - 01:12
Dennykilleen
Ace this is one of the best pedigrees I have seen. It is all 3rd line and your dog is typical representative of it.'
Did you mean FOURTH bloodline?
Jago is the 4th, no?
Yes Yago is 4th line thus technically he is 4th line. But I am looking at the whole dog. The Sire is 4th line and the Dam is 3rd male line. The 3rd and 4th are genetically really close since Klodo, the founder of 3rd line is sire of Utz vom Haus Schutting. The dog is displaying mainly characteristic of third line thus I subconsciously call him 3rd.
But yes you are right > he is 4th and has some characteristics of 4th line too. Like hard defensive personality.
Prager Hans
Ace this is one of the best pedigrees I have seen. It is all 3rd line and your dog is typical representative of it.'
Did you mean FOURTH bloodline?
Jago is the 4th, no?
Yes Yago is 4th line thus technically he is 4th line. But I am looking at the whole dog. The Sire is 4th line and the Dam is 3rd male line. The 3rd and 4th are genetically really close since Klodo, the founder of 3rd line is sire of Utz vom Haus Schutting. The dog is displaying mainly characteristic of third line thus I subconsciously call him 3rd.
But yes you are right > he is 4th and has some characteristics of 4th line too. Like hard defensive personality.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 28 December 2011 - 02:12
You can not find any dogs with "z Pohranicni straze" name because the name was retired about 10 +/- years ago. The only people who perpetuate the type of the dogs are mainly the creator of the z Pohranicni straze line is Jiri Novotny z Jirkova dvora and with him me AlpineK9 here in USA and Jipo Me Jiri Pokorny in Czech and to lesser or greater degree
few other breeders who closely cooperate together preserve these type of dogs. JINOPO is not a kennel but a business and cooperative of breeders.
Prager Hans
few other breeders who closely cooperate together preserve these type of dogs. JINOPO is not a kennel but a business and cooperative of breeders.
Prager Hans
by Jyl on 28 December 2011 - 07:12
ACE952,
I would like to find a male that does not have Grim or Klara for that matter in the pedigree to breed to my female next year. My female, Xena, is line bred on Grim 4,4,4. I DEFINANTLY do not want Klara in the pedigree of the male, that is for sure. Since Xena does go back to Klara. If the male had Grim in the pedigree farther back it would be ok. I am looking for a male that goes back to Cordon An Sat and hopefully also Titus z PS or Norbo Ben Ju.
PRAGER
Hans, I in no way was saying anything bad about Grim. I love Grim... I was just saying that everywhere I look the males or females for that matter go back to Grim. It is really hard to find a Czech dog nowa days that does not go back to Grim or Klara for that matter.
DUKE1965
To answer your question you asked " How many great dogs and combinations/litters do you want without Grim".
I will be looking to purchase a male in a few months. I will be getting a young (8-12 months) male. I would like to either get a West German workingline male. I had a great one that passed away in July 2009. Or I will get another Czech dog. If I get a Czech male I will want one that does not have Grim or Klara. I will definantly want the male to go back to Cordon An Sat.... but would love to see Norbo Be Ju or Titus z PS in there too...
As for a male that I am looking for to breed to my female Xena. I would like (if possible) to have him not go to Grim... DEFINANTLY not Klara though. As Xena goes back to Klara once in her pedigree and that will be enough for me..lol. Since my female is line bred on Grim 4,4,4 I do not want to add to much more Grim in there. Just a personal preferance.
I would like to find a male that does not have Grim or Klara for that matter in the pedigree to breed to my female next year. My female, Xena, is line bred on Grim 4,4,4. I DEFINANTLY do not want Klara in the pedigree of the male, that is for sure. Since Xena does go back to Klara. If the male had Grim in the pedigree farther back it would be ok. I am looking for a male that goes back to Cordon An Sat and hopefully also Titus z PS or Norbo Ben Ju.
PRAGER
Hans, I in no way was saying anything bad about Grim. I love Grim... I was just saying that everywhere I look the males or females for that matter go back to Grim. It is really hard to find a Czech dog nowa days that does not go back to Grim or Klara for that matter.
DUKE1965
To answer your question you asked " How many great dogs and combinations/litters do you want without Grim".
I will be looking to purchase a male in a few months. I will be getting a young (8-12 months) male. I would like to either get a West German workingline male. I had a great one that passed away in July 2009. Or I will get another Czech dog. If I get a Czech male I will want one that does not have Grim or Klara. I will definantly want the male to go back to Cordon An Sat.... but would love to see Norbo Be Ju or Titus z PS in there too...
As for a male that I am looking for to breed to my female Xena. I would like (if possible) to have him not go to Grim... DEFINANTLY not Klara though. As Xena goes back to Klara once in her pedigree and that will be enough for me..lol. Since my female is line bred on Grim 4,4,4 I do not want to add to much more Grim in there. Just a personal preferance.
by duke1965 on 28 December 2011 - 12:12
can you explain , why not klara , if you find something coming from cordon , over Tom , you also will add one more X klara , so you have to look for cordon over klara free motherline
here is a nice boy,I recently used for breeding without griim,
max cerny obelisk
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=669906
here is a nice boy,I recently used for breeding without griim,
max cerny obelisk
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=669906
by skyhorse on 28 December 2011 - 15:12
which part of Karo z Ulcova dvora pedigree is incorrect? I have wondered about the dam of Orana being correct - since it traces to showlines.
Pedigree database and working-dog EU match.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=62623
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/33836/Karo-z-Ulcova-dvora-CS
http://www.suchno.sk/databaza/karo-z-ulcova-dvora-cs-9355.html - does not give parents of Bor/Orana
Pedigree database and working-dog EU match.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=62623
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/33836/Karo-z-Ulcova-dvora-CS
http://www.suchno.sk/databaza/karo-z-ulcova-dvora-cs-9355.html - does not give parents of Bor/Orana
by Hukka on 28 December 2011 - 15:12
A dog that was born on 2003 cannot be a dam to a dog that was born in 1974! Same goes for the sire, born in 1975 can't be sire to a dog that was born in 1974.
by skyhorse on 28 December 2011 - 15:12
ok, I fixed the pedigree on pedigreedatabase. it is still wrong on EU.
by Prager on 28 December 2011 - 16:12
Klara z Pohranicni straze
Klara was a culprit in production of bad hips. Her trait was quite dominant thus it was passed on to the progeny for several generation. Klara was otherwise exceptional hard working dog and she produced quite a few dogs her self which were also exceptional. Usually her 1st generation progeny did not have bad hips in any alarming manner or rate. Thus many of her sons were incorporated into the breeding programs all over the Czechoslovakia. HD then skipped the generation and then they often persistently hang on for many generations and it was too late to eliminate her from the breeding programs. And that is why Klara is now incorporated in great number of Czech dogs of working line.
Now the good news.
It is what it is. Mistake was made. And many worked hard to eliminate it through selective breeding and compensations ( like breeding to Titus z PS and so on.)
Even so there are several breeders still totally obsessing about Klara we need to know that Klara is way back many generations back that is and even so her influence may now and then still show, it is usually so miniscule that it is equal to normal average background. However some still blame Klara for any bad hips in her remote progeny.
That is silly though. Klara is not the only one with HD problem in 100% of pedigrees and to think that if you eliminate Klara from the pedigrees that you will eliminate bad hips is totally ridiculous since there are now many other dogs in 1-4 generations back who are much more likely to cause these bad hips.
How far back you will go? 6 ?10? generations? Even so the Klara influence was really dominant and we may still feel it from time to time, we are just about of for sure behind such sphere of influence where we can singularly blame just Klara.
What to do?
Most importantly do not obsess about Klara and breed total dogs based on sound principles and do not breed just hips(!!!!!!). And do worry about other dogs then Klara.
If you see Klara, look on her progeny. Are the hips getting better and better and do you see mainly 0/0 or OFA good or better or A normal ? Good! And then what about the littermates of the dog which you want to breed and maybe its parents and grand parents? And is this repeated breeding and the last litter was mostly x rayed and all was good . Then do not worry about it!
By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!
However if you see funky hips winding through the pedigree like a red line then stay away form it.
By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!
Conclusion
You are breeding GSD and not hips! To obsess over Klara or Grischa which are 6 -10 generation back is pathological and detrimental to the breed. Breeders for many generations are aware of it and through selective breedings through all those generations in most cases eliminated this problem. You still do not want to linebreed on Klara heavily especially in the case of the "red line" where HD or other "funky hips " still dominantly persist ,...which I have mentioned above and in combination with other dogs which have the "red HD line" in their progeny. But that is just prudent thing to do in any breeding. No need to obsess JUST ABOUT about Klara. And one more thing> There is often much more important problem in more current generations and unfortunately people do not worry about it simply because they do not even know about it even so the info is there and are using breeding without Klara as if that would be some panacea and incorporate more influential dogs from more recent genrations with problem and do not even know it.
Prager Hans
Klara was a culprit in production of bad hips. Her trait was quite dominant thus it was passed on to the progeny for several generation. Klara was otherwise exceptional hard working dog and she produced quite a few dogs her self which were also exceptional. Usually her 1st generation progeny did not have bad hips in any alarming manner or rate. Thus many of her sons were incorporated into the breeding programs all over the Czechoslovakia. HD then skipped the generation and then they often persistently hang on for many generations and it was too late to eliminate her from the breeding programs. And that is why Klara is now incorporated in great number of Czech dogs of working line.
Now the good news.
It is what it is. Mistake was made. And many worked hard to eliminate it through selective breeding and compensations ( like breeding to Titus z PS and so on.)
Even so there are several breeders still totally obsessing about Klara we need to know that Klara is way back many generations back that is and even so her influence may now and then still show, it is usually so miniscule that it is equal to normal average background. However some still blame Klara for any bad hips in her remote progeny.
That is silly though. Klara is not the only one with HD problem in 100% of pedigrees and to think that if you eliminate Klara from the pedigrees that you will eliminate bad hips is totally ridiculous since there are now many other dogs in 1-4 generations back who are much more likely to cause these bad hips.
How far back you will go? 6 ?10? generations? Even so the Klara influence was really dominant and we may still feel it from time to time, we are just about of for sure behind such sphere of influence where we can singularly blame just Klara.
What to do?
Most importantly do not obsess about Klara and breed total dogs based on sound principles and do not breed just hips(!!!!!!). And do worry about other dogs then Klara.
If you see Klara, look on her progeny. Are the hips getting better and better and do you see mainly 0/0 or OFA good or better or A normal ? Good! And then what about the littermates of the dog which you want to breed and maybe its parents and grand parents? And is this repeated breeding and the last litter was mostly x rayed and all was good . Then do not worry about it!
By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!
However if you see funky hips winding through the pedigree like a red line then stay away form it.
By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!
Conclusion
You are breeding GSD and not hips! To obsess over Klara or Grischa which are 6 -10 generation back is pathological and detrimental to the breed. Breeders for many generations are aware of it and through selective breedings through all those generations in most cases eliminated this problem. You still do not want to linebreed on Klara heavily especially in the case of the "red line" where HD or other "funky hips " still dominantly persist ,...which I have mentioned above and in combination with other dogs which have the "red HD line" in their progeny. But that is just prudent thing to do in any breeding. No need to obsess JUST ABOUT about Klara. And one more thing> There is often much more important problem in more current generations and unfortunately people do not worry about it simply because they do not even know about it even so the info is there and are using breeding without Klara as if that would be some panacea and incorporate more influential dogs from more recent genrations with problem and do not even know it.
Prager Hans
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