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by Ace952 on 28 December 2011 - 16:12
Jyl -
Yes I can certainly understand why. I know if I ever gave my dog to someone to be bred, I would like to go west to get away from all the heavy linebreeding and hopefully sure up some other traits that I feel he is missing. I agree Grim/Klara are great to have in the PED for sure but personally I would want to move away from it in the future as my pup has enough of him in his PED.
BTW - I know someone that has a VERY nice male (I'm currently holding my breath in hopes of having him one day...lol) that is linebred on Cordon & Titus. One serious tough sob who I would love to work one day or watch work in person.
Yes I can certainly understand why. I know if I ever gave my dog to someone to be bred, I would like to go west to get away from all the heavy linebreeding and hopefully sure up some other traits that I feel he is missing. I agree Grim/Klara are great to have in the PED for sure but personally I would want to move away from it in the future as my pup has enough of him in his PED.
BTW - I know someone that has a VERY nice male (I'm currently holding my breath in hopes of having him one day...lol) that is linebred on Cordon & Titus. One serious tough sob who I would love to work one day or watch work in person.
by Hukka on 28 December 2011 - 18:12
Well, it is also still wrong in here:-) Now you have the dam that was born in 1910 for a dog that was born in 1974!! The correct parents for Orana are Vilmar and Fee z Ulcova dvora!
by duke1965 on 28 December 2011 - 20:12
ace , not meaning to be rude , but what happened in the last few weeks in your line of thinking , I would be less worried about grimm in the fifth gen. and more about twice Tom in the third and also coming over vito , this is going to influence your breeding more than 4 times grimm in the 5th generation
@ hans , very clear and correct explanation about klara and breeding ,I think she brought quality dogs , a shame to throw away , and you CAN breed away from bad hips
@ hans , very clear and correct explanation about klara and breeding ,I think she brought quality dogs , a shame to throw away , and you CAN breed away from bad hips
by Ace952 on 28 December 2011 - 20:12
Herby - You aren't being rude at all. I use to think czech dogs were the end all to be all. But after some slow reading, looking & talking to other breeders, mixing isn't a bad thing. There are some kennels that do it and may do it wrong but there are others that can and produce great dogs. I think having seperate lines is good as it always gives you something to go back to when things get diluted too much.
Funny thing so far, the female pup I have now is temperament & nerve wise (based on how they were at the same age), better than my male. Again things can change overtime and it is still early for both dogs but right now comparing how he was at the same age as she is now, she is the better dog.
I am looking more into her pedigree to see what other negatives there are along with the positives.
I did the same with my male. Here is his breakdown...
Great PED for working without a doubt but he is hectic/nervy on the bite.
Jago Jipo-Me x Gama z Jirkova Dvora
Jago is linebred:
5,5-5 on Klara
3-3 on Gero.
(Of course you see Grim 1x as well)
Gama is linebred
5-5 on Klara
3-3 on Grim
3-3 on Ben z Bolfu
Jax in turn has this linebreeding (there is more of course)
5,5-5 on Ben z Bolfu (Elbow rating was a 2)
5,5-5 on Zara z Blatenskeho zamku (Grand daughter of Klara)
4,4-4 on Gero z Blatenskeho zamku (elbows & hips due to Klara)
4,4-4 on Grim z Pohranicni straze (elbows)
Funny thing so far, the female pup I have now is temperament & nerve wise (based on how they were at the same age), better than my male. Again things can change overtime and it is still early for both dogs but right now comparing how he was at the same age as she is now, she is the better dog.
I am looking more into her pedigree to see what other negatives there are along with the positives.
I did the same with my male. Here is his breakdown...
Great PED for working without a doubt but he is hectic/nervy on the bite.
Jago Jipo-Me x Gama z Jirkova Dvora
Jago is linebred:
5,5-5 on Klara
3-3 on Gero.
(Of course you see Grim 1x as well)
Gama is linebred
5-5 on Klara
3-3 on Grim
3-3 on Ben z Bolfu
Jax in turn has this linebreeding (there is more of course)
5,5-5 on Ben z Bolfu (Elbow rating was a 2)
5,5-5 on Zara z Blatenskeho zamku (Grand daughter of Klara)
4,4-4 on Gero z Blatenskeho zamku (elbows & hips due to Klara)
4,4-4 on Grim z Pohranicni straze (elbows)
by duke1965 on 28 December 2011 - 21:12
as far as health issues on jax , I would look on the dogs close up on pedigree and not so much to 4th and 5th generation and look at parents and grandparents of jax and their littermates
I do also linebreeding on klara further back (not intentionally) and have super healthresults , full litters HD A end ED0 , and in my bouviers I have as much as 17 times P litter lampegat (bad hips) in my dogs , and my hiprecords are unmatched by any kennel or line in the world , 99.9 HD free were the few bad ones are to be found after first generation of outcross
if you talk to someone else everyday , you will hear different opinion every day , important is to find your own path,and dont change direction, everytime the wind blows from another corner
about hectic bite , nothing wrong with that , depending on your goals , if you want schh sport for points its not a good thing , if you want guard or PPdog i dont give a shit how he bites as long as he gets the job done , if a competitiondog with prey/pointsbite , lets the badguy crack your skull , thats also not what your looking for
in breeding you can balance drives/grips without problem , and easily see on pups which will be calm grips and which ones will be not
I do also linebreeding on klara further back (not intentionally) and have super healthresults , full litters HD A end ED0 , and in my bouviers I have as much as 17 times P litter lampegat (bad hips) in my dogs , and my hiprecords are unmatched by any kennel or line in the world , 99.9 HD free were the few bad ones are to be found after first generation of outcross
if you talk to someone else everyday , you will hear different opinion every day , important is to find your own path,and dont change direction, everytime the wind blows from another corner
about hectic bite , nothing wrong with that , depending on your goals , if you want schh sport for points its not a good thing , if you want guard or PPdog i dont give a shit how he bites as long as he gets the job done , if a competitiondog with prey/pointsbite , lets the badguy crack your skull , thats also not what your looking for
in breeding you can balance drives/grips without problem , and easily see on pups which will be calm grips and which ones will be not
by VitoManiac on 28 December 2011 - 22:12
I love these kind of threads. My pup has z Pohranicni straze and Jirkova Dvora in its pedigree ending with Mambo 3 generations back. Seeing familiar kennel names and reading various opinions is very enlightening thanks to you guys.
by aaykay on 29 December 2011 - 00:12
My girl is line-bred:
5-5 on Titus z PS
5-4 on Grim z PS
and going further back:
6-6 Klara/Dax Namelev combo
6-9 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land (via Diana z PS and Xant z Jirkova Dvora) - German Sieger of 1984 and 1985 and one of the pillars of the breed
She also has Norbo Ben Ju, Balli Panta Rei, Dargo Ha Ja Da and Pluto z PS in the 3rd generation.
To be quite honest, finding Uran in her "all czech" pedigree (twice !) was a surprise. Of course in the days of Uran, even showline dogs were dual-purpose (show/work) dogs with "correct" angulation and solid temperaments/working ability.
5-5 on Titus z PS
5-4 on Grim z PS
and going further back:
6-6 Klara/Dax Namelev combo
6-9 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land (via Diana z PS and Xant z Jirkova Dvora) - German Sieger of 1984 and 1985 and one of the pillars of the breed
She also has Norbo Ben Ju, Balli Panta Rei, Dargo Ha Ja Da and Pluto z PS in the 3rd generation.
To be quite honest, finding Uran in her "all czech" pedigree (twice !) was a surprise. Of course in the days of Uran, even showline dogs were dual-purpose (show/work) dogs with "correct" angulation and solid temperaments/working ability.
by aaykay on 29 December 2011 - 01:12
Usually her 1st generation progeny did not have bad hips in any alarming manner or rate. Thus many of her sons were incorporated into the breeding programs all over the Czechoslovakia. HD then skipped the generation and then they often persistently hang on for many generations and it was too late to eliminate her from the breeding programs.
Hans, don't know if your experience agrees with my theory, but I have always felt that many characteristics tend to skip a generation (skip the children) and makes their presence felt in the grand-children. Curious that Klara also followed that pattern.
So I tend to closely look at the grand-parents in my dog's pedigree, even though parents are definitely a strong influence.
Hans, don't know if your experience agrees with my theory, but I have always felt that many characteristics tend to skip a generation (skip the children) and makes their presence felt in the grand-children. Curious that Klara also followed that pattern.
So I tend to closely look at the grand-parents in my dog's pedigree, even though parents are definitely a strong influence.
by darelteam on 29 April 2012 - 11:04
by ghostly on 30 April 2012 - 23:04
I have lines that come from the z Pohranicni Straze & Policia lines toodogs, chaz has a very good point to many of our Czech dogs being mixed with west german lines. Most of them are full Czech lines which I have become very fond of.
As for Klara z Pohranicni Straze, she had great working traits, but as a producer she wasn't the best for her hip production. I have seen dogs that have been effected even 7 generations away from her.
Jago is linebred:
5,5-5 on Klara
3-3 on Gero.
(Of course you see Grim 1x as well)
when linebreeding using Grim I have found that if you have any crap in the pedigree would only add to the problems that could occur. Adding Klara 5,5-5 and Gero 3/3 IMO would only stack the odds against the breeding. BTW there is Grim 2 times
"By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!
However if you see funky hips winding through the pedigree like a red line then stay away form it.
By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!"
Hans with a comment like this one makes me wonder what your excuse is for all the problem breedings you have had, Did you do your research?
As for Klara z Pohranicni Straze, she had great working traits, but as a producer she wasn't the best for her hip production. I have seen dogs that have been effected even 7 generations away from her.
Jago is linebred:
5,5-5 on Klara
3-3 on Gero.
(Of course you see Grim 1x as well)
when linebreeding using Grim I have found that if you have any crap in the pedigree would only add to the problems that could occur. Adding Klara 5,5-5 and Gero 3/3 IMO would only stack the odds against the breeding. BTW there is Grim 2 times
"By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!
However if you see funky hips winding through the pedigree like a red line then stay away form it.
By the way you should do this type of research with any breeding!!! Klara or not!"
Hans with a comment like this one makes me wonder what your excuse is for all the problem breedings you have had, Did you do your research?
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