Will your working line GSD protect you - Page 7

I agree with both Duke and Slamdunc in what they say....the difference is Slamdunc is describing the type of dog that will protect and serve with extensive training. Duke is describing a dog who will protect naturally with minimal training. Both types can be effective in police service work....but I think Duke's type is closer to the recipe for a dog to naturally protect its owner.JMO


I agree.  Some dogs NEED  bite training, some don't.  Some, even with extensive training and titles, still stand there confused and don't know what to do when a situation arises.

I've never trained my dogs to bite, yet have had two out of 6 that definitley would and  have.   One I took to a club at 3 and tested him, and the other stopped a 6 foot man from coming in my laneway, who, when he hit and kicked her didn't back down but went after his arms and legs and only stopped when asked to. 

So, to answer the OP question, yes, my WL will, however, like Chaz and others have said before though, be careful what you wish for, as more good guys then bad guys are likely to come to your house, and some dogs don't wait until you tell them which is which.

I don't think I described a dog that needed training to have civil aggression. One of my points was that some dogs will engage a person just to fight an aggressive person. They are not "protecting" their handler as many would like to believe. On the flip side some dogs will become aggressive just to protect themselves. Will these dogs also protect the handler if the handler is with them? As a side effect yes. But for different reasons and with varying degrees of ability and success. Then there is the dog in the middle of the temperament road, who will act out of loyalty or bonding. Or whatever you choose to call it. All in all the dogs that will truly engage a person and fight a determined assailant, not just bluff are few and far between. If there were so many of these dogs out there finding good, suitable Police Dogs, sport dogs or PPDs would be easy. I could just go to the pound or any local breeder and pick up a few. The key is to know which type of dog you have and why is he Is doing what he does.

 I agree whole heartedly with what you said Jim. Understanding "why"  the dog will fight is key to knowing if he will and when. 

 This quote is close to perfect! 

"One of my points was that some dogs will engage a person just to fight an aggressive person. They are not "protecting" their handler as many would like to believe."
 
 Knowing your dog is key to this statement.

"
 """

I can agree , but in cases where that is the case , it still has nothing to do with bonding and everything with the levels of various drives in the dog

furthermore jim writes

If there were so many of these dogs out there finding good, suitable Police Dogs, sport dogs or PPDs would be easy.  

have to disagree here  , none of the K9 centers I know (and I know a lot of them) will accept this type of dog , as they have no clients for them , they all want very social , high balldrive , low civil , not sharp dogs that happily bite the sleeve on command  , for sport goes the same

mikes me wonder were they get their riotcontroldogs

 

 Lets be real honest here, my respect to all officers and K9 handlers but is it the problem with finding good dogs or a problem finding quiliafied handlers to work with the dog till there competent to handle them?. Are the officers willing to put in the time to understand the dog and understand the handleing needs and training needs or is it more of the "Shovel" mentalitiy.

 The only reason I ask is because i,ve noticed a trend where if you get several K9 officers together the conversation will get to training and pay and inevitably I hear " If there not going to pay me any extra while I train then screw it".


 Or is it the liability issue is so at the forfront of the issue that alot of dept,s don,t want the dog Jim describes?. And there again won,t pay the officer for the training required to handle said dog?.

 

simple example that goes for sport , breeding and army , first test is to throw a ball , and if the dog is not hystirical crazy for it  , the rest is not even looked at most of thime

now I have a dog I use for breeding that wont apport nothing , 8 years old but still doesnot care for a ball , in his young days was thrown out of sport for lack of prey , K9 centers didnot want him , no prey ,too civil
I breed him to high drive females , and he produces dogs like jim described , great dogs  for sport , personal protection etc , but some of his sons were offered to K9 centeres and refused for reasons as too short fuse , too dominant etc

now the K9 centers buy what their clients want , and I think that is were the problem lies , I think , they want dogs that can be put with any novice handler and trainee they have , and therefore dont want strong dogs , hard dogs or anything like that , the answer is a social dog that has crazy prey

offcoarse that is generally speaking as there are obviously enough  handlers and K9 units that can and will handle a tough dog , but they are not the majority

Duke, Bob, I think that's an excellent point!  It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out you're right.

Well, we can certainly go and debate the handling abilities of K-9 Officers.  Like everything else, there are excellent dedicated handlers and some that are not so proficient.  A good K-9 handler needs to be a good cop, with excellent instincts first.  An Officer with a proven track record of quality arrests, sound decision making skills, no excessive use of force complaints and the desire to go above and beyond to catch the bad guy.  Those are the guys we look for and it a very competitive process to make our K-9 unit.  I come from a sport background and that desire to achieve a highly trained working partner comes through in our training and my expectation level.  Now, just like most sport handlers are not National level competitors and most pet owners can't walk their dogs on a leash with out it pulling them down the street; some K-9 handlers are unfortunately not the best either.  Being a successful K-9 handler does not mean having a super well trained "demo" dog.  You do not have to be the best handler in the world, you need to have control on your dog, work hard, and be in the right place at the right time.  That makes a good K-9 handler.   It does bother me when some people, (not Bob, Duke or anyone else on this thread so far) refer to K-9 handlers as "pathetic, poorly trained or useless."  I find that really irritating coming from folks that have never done anything with a dog, besides maybe breed them.  I have said it before, come out to our training and watch our handlers work their dogs, then decide for yourself.  Also, bringing your own dog and showing us how to do it correctly would be awesome. 

Duke,

I have seen some Dept's that want high prey dogs and will only look at GSD's. These Dept's want dogs to track and do detection work, no bitework.  That amazes me. One of my preferred vendors imports dogs like this and very few Mali's. When asked why?  I was told that is what his customers want.  It makes it very difficult to find suitable dogs from them to suit our needs.  I want dogs with high drives, social and stable enough to work in a SWAT environment.  I also want serious civil aggression, and high defense, but higher prey.  The dog can be friendly and approachable, but must "turn on" quickly.  The handler does not select the dog and if he can't handle the dog another handler will replace him.    If you have dogs like this I will be contacting you in the future. 

Bob,
You make an excellent point. Not all cops should be handlers.  If they won't work their dog on their days off they need to find another assignment.   It is too high risk of a job to have lazy people doing it. 

want dogs with high drives, social and stable enough to work in a SWAT environment.  I also want serious civil aggression, and high defense, but higher prey.  The dog can be friendly and approachable, but must "turn on" quickly.  The handler does not select the dog and if he can't handle the dog another handler will replace him.


to me it sounds like he is describing what a real gsd is suppose to be? not a all defensive dog.. I didnt think the kind of dog he was talking about wouldnt notice a threat when it sees one with its high civil and defense drives.  The prey dogs i am thinking of which have trouble seeing a threat or protecting are the locked in prey type but what slam talks about sounds nothing like that.

Destiny,
I like a balanced dog that has  all around high  drives.  High prey, high hunt, high defense, etc.  Just tipped more towards prey than defense.  The dogs I look for must have a solid temperament, no environmental  issues, strong nerves and clear headed.  Obviously you make sacrifices on some things in order to get more of something else.  Some one else said it on this thread or another thread, just because the dog has high prey drive doesn't mean it lacks defense or natural aggression.  You can have both, you just have to look a little harder to find it.  This is just what I want and what works for me.

Destiny you wrote:

"not a all defensive dog.. I didn't think the kind of dog he was talking about wouldn't notice a threat when it sees one with its high civil and defense drives """""""    """"""""      """""""""""


I'm not sure what that statement means?