Submissive & Excited Urination and Spaying - Page 1

To give some background.  It's gonna be long winded because I really want to make sure I give all relevant info if I am going to ask a question.

First GSD and made some mistakes, did read a couple of books on the breed and talked to someone in our area who has one but short of talking with the breeder and visiting once ahead and once on day of pick up we didn't do anything else.  Just the one breeder, didn't visit multiples, found her on the AKC website and ignorantly thought that that was "enough".  I waited 7 years to get another dog and after a year of considering GSD we went with it.  I have never had a purebred dog before so I really didn't know enough about it and admittedly should have done more research.  Found this site via a link on the breeders website and started reading here before we brought Sasha home.  I am not usually one to jump in half assed but on this I did.  I am so glad we did it but so glad we didn't get bitten in the a** too.

Anyway...I have a female who is going on six months old.  At first vet visit in December the day after bringing her home the vet told me that Sasha has her urethra & vulva in the wrong spot, a congenital defect that may or may not cause issues going forward with UTI's but we have no intent to breed.  Her "girl stuff" is about two and a half inches down on her belly instead of on her rear.  Again no intent to breed and at that point she had no symptoms of a UTI or anything else.  Didn't intend to take her back to the breeder because of it so we just moved on and followed the instructions from the vet to wipe her with unscented baby wipes after each urination.  A couple of weeks later she got a UTI (lab confirmed) that flared up after finishing the seven day course of antibiotics.  Vet repeated with four week course of same antibiotic and a lab culture to verify infection was gone.  All good and haven't had another one since.

Sasha does have an issue with urination when excited mostly and I think it's  submissive urination.  The vet thinks it has nothing to do with the congenital issue and that she will outgrow it.  We ignore it, never have scolded her, never have told her no, hit her, or anything else.  Just saying so you all know.  One of us just moves in the other direction so she follows (to keep her from walking through it) and someone else gets the stuff to clean it up.  Sasha has a very nice personality, a bit of a goofball, but does seem to be fearful at times too.  Example: when walking around the block she would whine and try to jump in my lap when we got more than two houses away.  This behavior has stopped for the most part.  We took her to puppy obedience where the vet recommended instead of PetSmart (stupid move #2 thankfully averted by the vet) and the trainer recommended that she go into a puppy agility class after obedience to try to build up her self confidence.  I do see a big difference, we just finished the six week class.  NO jumping high or weaving through poles, it was all appropriate for her age but boy did she love that class.  We will do more obedience but her spay is scheduled for two weeks and we would miss two weeks of classes so we are holding off. 

So after all of the background here it is.. with her congenital defect and her UTI history should I wait to spay her?  Sasha does not have a recessed vulva but I don't want to do something (spay) that will prolong the excited urination OR give her more UTI's.

Thank you.

Honestly you would probably be better off not spaying her until she has a heat cycle or two. Give her urinary tract time to mature and grow, and mentally time to mature. Submissive/excited peeing can very well be caused by her weakness/fearful temperament, and she may never grow out of it. The majority do, but you have alot of work ahead of you in regards to confidence building.

There is another thread on here about the same thing, I cant browse the forum pages on this computer though. :(

Thanks.  I searched for the urination issue but will look for building confidence.  We figured on having to do a lot with her once she started showing the fearfulness.  I planned on keeping up with training in one form or another anyway.  The agility trainer says she doesn't see it when we are there the excited happy to see everyone oh yeah but doing the agility class she was rearing to go and jumped right in from day one.  It could be me misreading her.  I have never had a german shepherd before always a mixed breed adopted at a bit older than Sasha is now.  

The closer we get to the spay the more I think I should wait, time to listen to the gut probably.

I like the trainer where we go but I am going to have to find someone to come to the house and work with us I think.  There is a man a few towns over that I have heard is very good so I am going to go watch one of his classes to see if it will be a fit.  No treats with this guy, all praise and doing the work because that is what they need to do.

WAIT until 45  days after her first heat.  Most vulva  issues will resolve after first heat and the vulva becomes mature.  Just do not let her get bred!  Heat lasts about 21 days.. with the last 7 days being the most vulnerable for unwanted pregnancy (breeding). 

Submissive urination is unrelated to the physical issue.  Submissive Urination is the result of weak/unconfident temperament (genetic) and/or abuse (in some dogs).  A harsh word can make some dogs do this.. a hard look even.  Not saying YOU do anything at all.. some dogs will submissive pee just upon greeting people. 

Does your dog only do this at home?  What is your reaction?  When you first come home and the dog is excited, try ignoring her completely for 10 minutes and when she is calmed down, give her attention and see if it helps at al.

I am leaning towards waiting, considering running her over to Penn for a consult yes expensive but will sure make me feel better.  The vet has never seen this defect before.  She won't outgrow a misplaced organ but I know what you mean.  We don't let her outside by herself for the most part anyway because the fence on one side (not ours) is only three feet tall.  Until I get the new fence in I don't trust her not to follow a squirrel or cat over the fence just yet so we go out with her to potty still.  There is a Lab stud two doors down on the next street so this is a big concern for me.  We will just make sure she is leashed and with me or my husband if we go down that road.

I am hoping I am reading her wrong, I am going to have to try to to find someone to do a temperment test.  I don't know where to start on that but that is going to have to be my next mission.  

The urination issue will happen to a few people regularly but not every time: me, my husband, my mother, one girlfriend, and the male next door neighbor.  The three kids (14, 8, 7) not at all often but it has happened.  My mom is NOT at all a dog person and had a bad experience with a shepherd but Sasha loves her to death and gets more excited to see my mom than she does with me.  My neighbor had a shepherd for many years so they (he & wife) play with Sasha and come to visit often.  My girlfriend has been over three times since we got Sasha, twice she urinated.

Up until four weeks ago I came home mid day from work to let her out and exercise her.  It started at twice a day thirty minutes each visit then down to once a day for an hour then four weeks ago I stopped coming home.  This issue has been happening since we got her housebroken.  The vet told me that by four or five months old she should be able to wait 6 hours to be let out, she was sleeping 8 hours through the night at three months old.  The urinating never happened at all during the day trips home, only ever in the evening when I come home or when my husband comes home or when someone is coming into the house.  With the neighbor it will happen outside the house too.  Today the afternoon/evening routine is that my daughter comes home from school and lets out the dog and plays with her in the yard for a half hour.  I get home an hour later with the boys, my husband gets home 15 minutes after me.  

Until this week Sasha would be in the house with my daughter and would be at the gate whinining like crazy and jumping up on the gate.  50% of the time she will be so excited that she urinates.  We tried having her leashed and in a down before I hit the front door but it didn't help, she just urinated lying down.  My response to being on the gate is a simple firm "Off" and then to walk in and ignore her (no eye contact, no petting, and no talking) per the vet and trainer recommendation.  If she does urinate one of us will get her attention with a click of the tongue and then walk away from the area so that she doesn't walk all over it and she usually follows.  The other person does clean up.  Generally no one speaks to Sasha during all of this, we will usually just keep ignoring her until she is calm.  If Sasha is completely crazy we will just walk to the back door and walk outside so she follows us.  My thought was that at least if she continues to urinate she is doing it outside.  No one yells at her, tells her she's bad, mumbles under their breath or anything else.  Puppies and pee go hand in hand, I didn't get new carpets or vinyl floors this year because I knew we would be getting a puppy.  Pee happens.

This week I decided to try the crate.  Sasha is always an angel in there, doesn't matter what time of day or night or how long or short a time she has been in there 3 minutes or 3 hours.  Sasha sits and waits patiently to be let out.  An occasional whine, never has barked.  Sasha crate trained so easily I was floored.  Never has had an accident in there, the first week she would whine and try to jump on me but that's it.  I ignored her, walked her outside, and by the end of the week she stopped acting up.  Lots of praise when she would go outside nicely then go potty but none until that was done.  The last two days she was whining and vocal in the crate when we came in, we will see how it goes tonight.  I didn't let her out until she was visibly calm AND quiet so hopefully this will solve the problem.  It took about two minutes both nights.

Now that you know my life story ;)  Thanks! 

i had a similar expirience with this "submissive urination" and seek for help here and got an amazing result just 2-3 days later. I was asked to try giving treats right in my hands(feeding treats from my hands), ignoring her fears must of the time. Also take her out, socializing heq with treats. But where's "hodie", she also helped me out and she could still help here. Other help too.