Schutzhund Dog and Personal Protection Dog - Page 10

Slamdunc

  Very well said. A PPD that is a bite for real, dead serious dog can be hard to handle more often then not. I have found most dog people can not handle them. If someone is afraid of getting bit by a dog, then get a goldfish, they are cheaper and are just as effective as most so called protection dogs.

give me a kong and a swiss army knife and i will kill your dog... lmaooo. i needed that slam.

im waiting for the $65,000 ppd owners to start posting. Take a few people off their high horse... lol

I've only owned one PPD...  and he could have done Schutzhund as well if I'd known where to do it with him back 30+ years ago.  He enjoyed obedience, pet therapy with the mentally retarded where I worked, Conformation, Dog Sledding, Tracking and Bite work.  He saw his first sleeve when he was 4 years old, and had a good solid bite.  His best quality was that he was 100% reliable in all situations.  He went to County Fairs, Goat shows, Fireman's carnivals, Folk music weekends... nothing bothered him, and with the way he was trained did not come onto alert unless given the command.  When weird situations would happen he'd watch me carefully to see if I wanted or needed his help.  Shiloh did not have a high high prey drive... but I would have loved to see him in Schutzhund.  He was a BYB dog, and a white ta boot... but was one of the most stable Shepherds I've ever met.  The black male I have now is equally sound, and if I were physically able could be trained for either or both.  So guess my answer is it depends on the dog, what you're expecting from him, and how skilled you are at making those things clear to them.

Slam and Kurt.....I agree about a lot of people have never done one much less both, yet often have the loudest opinion or even the first opinion.....if it is someone who it appears really don't know that they don't know.....you try to educate them; if its one of the PDB regulars that's feels a need to weigh in on anything because they are longtime pet owner.....they often are not looking to learn. As for Melanie, I would consider her an expert in understanding sport and civil dogs. This is based on her experience, having trained with her, and her uncanny natural ability for extreme dog work. She has developed multiple dogs to very high levels in sport and civil. She is an excellent decoy/helper who understands a dog from both ends of the leash. To me an expert is some who is experienced AND understanding of the inside and outside of what they are tasked with. There are many experts in all fields....these are people that more times than not you learn things from....these people are able to handle, train, and READ a dog.  If the OP really wants to understand the difference in sport/ppd then the Melanie's or Slams of the world (and many others like Prager) are good places to start. Btw, I am not personally an agent for any of these people, they just have earned my respect on this dual subject.

Have seen dogs that have been exclusively trained  on a sleeve and the second the sleeve slips off, the dog ignores the guy he/she was "fighting" and runs away with the sleeve.  When a sleeve is not present, the dog is confused and is clueless on what to do with the "intruder" in front of them.  When the sleeve is present, the dog is all prey-wound up and whining to get at the "man with the sleeve".  As someone stated, even with hidden sleeves, a dog that has been exclusively on sleeve/equipment-based training can still smell the presence of the sleeve, and its "attack" is still onto the "sleeve" and not the man wearing it.

Hopefully the PP bound dogs can be quickly transitioned away from  sleeve-based training (which is needed to an extent to protect the decoy, of course), and thus do the job they are supposed to do.  I think some of the talk against dogs with high-level ScHH titles is that their long-term repetitive sleeve-based training will come in the way of actual protection work, due to the conditioning they have been through which makes sleeve-biting (as opposed to targeting the intruder) almost first-nature.  The underlying dog may have the genetic abilities to be a PP dog, but the genetics have now been suborned by the repetitive equipment-based conditioning/training. 

Cliff,
I agree that Melanie is awesome!   She is an excellent trainer and handler and very committed.  I have a great deal of respect for you and many others on here as well.  

I agree about a lot of people have never done one much less both, yet often have the loudest opinion or even the first opinion.....if it is someone who it appears really don't know that they don't know.....you try to educate them; if its one of the PDB regulars that's feels a need to weigh in on anything because they are longtime pet owner.....they often are not looking to learn

I am always willing to offer advice or suggestions on a thread where I may have some experience or something to add to help some one.  I am a little over jumping in on the PPD vs Sport dogs threads, the SL vs WL threads and the sport dogs can't work threads.  I am in agreement that a dog bred for any extreme is not going to be balanced and may have as many shortcomings as positives.  I just get frustrated by the myths and misconceptions often perpetuated by some on forums such as this one.  

So many people with so many different answers...

I think this is because there's such a diversified background...Some only do Obedience...some only do Schutzhund...some only Police Work...So this says to me that everyone has a different take on what they want...What they want from a dog...

Even in Police work there are dogs that they'll use in PR and others you wouldn't dare...

So to me "Is it possible to do both Schutzhund and Personal Protection Work"...I would say absolutely YES...but it depends on many factors...

1) The owner
2) The dog
3) The trainer

...and the quality and knowledge of each...

I've had many dogs that I do Schutzhund with...but they are definitely my Personal Protection Dog...too! I tend to agree with the people that say it really depends on the dog...But you need a dog that has a brain and is controlable...

~Bob~

I have not read all the posts thus forgive me if i will repeat some . 
Here is my opinion. 
SchH and PP  could be trained in the same dog who is capable of it and has good instinct for it. 
After all it is possible  for a person  to   be trained in  martial arts as a sport and also be trained as a  cop and or military or as a civilian and use combat type personal protection in real  life scenario. 
Sport training in dogs and in people  is designed not to hurt the decoy, and real protection is designed to hurt or cause injury to  the perpetrator of a crime.
However  dogs do not rationalize like humans and act on instinct, conditioning and routine and association so on. That is were you will run into trouble if the training is not done properly. The main conflict is that in practically all  sport training systems dog targets the sleeve ( or body suit, which  is the same thing  to the dog as sleeve) and in dog's mind  the sport  helper  is actually a friend of the dog which has his toy ( sleeve) which happens to be on his arm or on his body in case of suit.   Where in PP or patrol training the dog must target the person and the person is usually the  enemy or prey. 
Many or let say most police or pp dogs are dogs which were trained first sport and then turned into civil dogs later. This is not always possible, especially  if the dog has targeting on the equipment too ingrained.
At this point let me say that:
1.  the prey or defense drives are inherited instincts but to what they are used on is a learned behavior. The dogs also are the strongest what they learn first (earlier) . Thus if you teach the dog to target a equipment. like towel, sleeve, toy, suit, then the dog will usually prefer these items  before attacking a person. That is often  regardless of the amount of training and effort which is put into the dog later in order to reverse this learned behavior. Thus you may end up with the dog who will target a person unless the person throws a ball or jacket, which is similar  to training equipment, on the ground. 
2. the longer  and with more repetition the sport system is trained harder it is to transfer the dog into PP dog. Thus ShH 3 is usually harder to transfer into pp dog then SchH1. 
So what can be done?
A. dog can be transferred with higher or lower success rate from sport to PP as described above 
or
B. Dog which has inherited proper  instincts  can be subjected to what I call parallel training where the dog is trained both at the same time and  as soon asthe instinct is mature enough and thus ready for such training.  That is done in completely separate manner thus  the dog then ( if done properly)  has no association between sport and PP training and actual live situation. Dogs are not stupid and in this kind of training can determine if it is sport or PP situation. That is if this is done properly by trainer who is familiar and proficient with this approach,...which is rare commodity.                                              
I would like to say that if you or your trainer are not good at or familiar with this type of a training then you should use transfer system or just decide for  either sport or PP training or have 2 dogs. 
Prager Hans

Qman, Slam....