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by Jim Engel on 09 January 2013 - 01:01
by Prager on 10 January 2013 - 19:01
Sentiment of the article is true in many but not all instances.
Article is one sided because it is promoting sport training and competitive training as an only means of measuring quality of the trainer's and his/hers dog ability. AKC training, French ring sport and finally culminates with final promotion of PSA. I like PSA, but PSA is still just a sport and same as SchH dog PSA dog will most likely not protect without additional training. Even so LE personnel is encouraged to participate in PSA such occurrence is rare or non existent. It would be interesting to know why. Maybe Slamdunc can let us know.
I would like to suggest that competition and sport is not a measure of all by no means to say the least. Thus otherwise good article is quite one sided since there are many excellent trainers who do not necessarily compete or care to compete, but produce excellent LE dogs, S&R, and detection dogs and handicapped support dogs, sled dog, hunting dogs and then there are trainers dealing with behavior modification. Thus I would say again that sport is not measure of all as the otherwise good article tries to insinuate. In the end such real life trainers are more valuable to the society then sport trainers.
I will stick my head out and say that yes sport, since it is a main game in dog town, is a double edged weapon and on one side promotes, better then most, good dogs of some type ( mainly high prey ) and breeding practices of the same and on the other side sport does exact opposite and actually disregards and actually it is detrimental to production and training of real life working LE or PP dogs.
I personally believe that there should be developed testing program which would promote breeding of sound GSD dogs. ( I say GSD since I am GSD man, but same may be said for other breeds.) System where training for it would not take 1-2 years and changing lifestyle of the breeder/trainer as it is truth in SchH or IPO or PSA and so on and still produces excellent dogs. I think such system would be beneficial to the breed of GSD.
Prager Hans
Article is one sided because it is promoting sport training and competitive training as an only means of measuring quality of the trainer's and his/hers dog ability. AKC training, French ring sport and finally culminates with final promotion of PSA. I like PSA, but PSA is still just a sport and same as SchH dog PSA dog will most likely not protect without additional training. Even so LE personnel is encouraged to participate in PSA such occurrence is rare or non existent. It would be interesting to know why. Maybe Slamdunc can let us know.
I would like to suggest that competition and sport is not a measure of all by no means to say the least. Thus otherwise good article is quite one sided since there are many excellent trainers who do not necessarily compete or care to compete, but produce excellent LE dogs, S&R, and detection dogs and handicapped support dogs, sled dog, hunting dogs and then there are trainers dealing with behavior modification. Thus I would say again that sport is not measure of all as the otherwise good article tries to insinuate. In the end such real life trainers are more valuable to the society then sport trainers.
I will stick my head out and say that yes sport, since it is a main game in dog town, is a double edged weapon and on one side promotes, better then most, good dogs of some type ( mainly high prey ) and breeding practices of the same and on the other side sport does exact opposite and actually disregards and actually it is detrimental to production and training of real life working LE or PP dogs.
I personally believe that there should be developed testing program which would promote breeding of sound GSD dogs. ( I say GSD since I am GSD man, but same may be said for other breeds.) System where training for it would not take 1-2 years and changing lifestyle of the breeder/trainer as it is truth in SchH or IPO or PSA and so on and still produces excellent dogs. I think such system would be beneficial to the breed of GSD.
Prager Hans
by Jim Engel on 10 January 2013 - 21:01
Mr. Hans,
Most of what you say is true.
This article was created to counter the arguements of those who talk about
the negative aspects of sport, and claim that they produce "real" dogs.
But we both know that for one of these hard core "real" trainers out there,
there are six or ten talk the talk fool the ordinary person types.
How can a person tell the difference ?
Those that can probably will just train their own dog, or pay a hellper to do
it under their supervision.
The rest are probabaly wasting a lot of money.
This is kind of an old article, I should rewrite it to cover the points that you make,
and am discussing much of theis in the book I am working on.
http://www.angelplace.net/Book/
Prager, If you have comments on this material, I would like to hear it, either
here or at
jimengel@mc.net
Most of what you say is true.
This article was created to counter the arguements of those who talk about
the negative aspects of sport, and claim that they produce "real" dogs.
But we both know that for one of these hard core "real" trainers out there,
there are six or ten talk the talk fool the ordinary person types.
How can a person tell the difference ?
Those that can probably will just train their own dog, or pay a hellper to do
it under their supervision.
The rest are probabaly wasting a lot of money.
This is kind of an old article, I should rewrite it to cover the points that you make,
and am discussing much of theis in the book I am working on.
http://www.angelplace.net/Book/
Prager, If you have comments on this material, I would like to hear it, either
here or at
jimengel@mc.net
by Hired Dog on 11 January 2013 - 00:01
Mr Engel, you have been around a very long time and I admired your involvement in the Bouvier breed. Hans, you have been around a long time as well and KNOW your GSDs.
My take on this discussion is the same I have maintained for 33 plus years...great dogs are BORN, not made.
If you have the proper genetics in place, you can take that dog and make it into anything you want, PPD, IPO, or both. Hans has a great idea about coming up with a venue that will test the real abilities of a dog. I say that venue exists in the NVBK and its Malinois. There is a reason its called the hardest dog sport on the planet and I would take one of those dogs, my own selection of course, right off the ring and have it bite in the REAL world. Like Slam said in a previous post though, "how many people who need a PPD, can actually handle one"?
Again, proper genetics, dog will bite the sleeve, the suit, the car door or the fridge when told. Do these dogs exist, sure, how many are actually sold, VERY few. Your thoughts are always welcome gentlemen.
My take on this discussion is the same I have maintained for 33 plus years...great dogs are BORN, not made.
If you have the proper genetics in place, you can take that dog and make it into anything you want, PPD, IPO, or both. Hans has a great idea about coming up with a venue that will test the real abilities of a dog. I say that venue exists in the NVBK and its Malinois. There is a reason its called the hardest dog sport on the planet and I would take one of those dogs, my own selection of course, right off the ring and have it bite in the REAL world. Like Slam said in a previous post though, "how many people who need a PPD, can actually handle one"?
Again, proper genetics, dog will bite the sleeve, the suit, the car door or the fridge when told. Do these dogs exist, sure, how many are actually sold, VERY few. Your thoughts are always welcome gentlemen.
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