Show line-working line mix, a revival of the breed? - Page 4

VK,
The one thing you are missing is the fact that the gene pool for WGSL
tends to be very concentrated and bottlenecked worse than Fero.
So even if you have one outstanding example from a litter of say 6,
the odds of that one dog reproducing itself are very slim. Because that
dog is drawing from the very same limited genes the other 5 are, therefore
it becomes more of an anomaly than the 'norm'. 

Now, if you have a litter of at least 4 really GOOD puppies, then I'd say
you are on to something. But that is simply not the reality of showlines.
They have been greatly damaged by those that slap a stamp on the asses
of their dogs and send them off to get the titles 'out of the way'. Breeding for 
side gait and coat etc. Just like in WL where a breeder concentrates on
one or two facets only, you end up with very limited quality, if any at all.
Each generation gets weaker and weaker in the same areas.  Sort of 
like, if you breed a dog with known allergies to another dog with known
allergies, would you be shocked to find out your puppies are plagued
with allergies too? 


And to answer you, yes, absolutely. Every breeding  regardless of 'type'
should be done with serious thought to maintaining working ability,
temperment, correct athletic structure, mental soundness and  
overall good health! 

I understand the bottleneck, that is why I completely agree that good breeding (regardless of line/type) needs to be multiple generations in the making.  The cross I have in mind is probably not one I'd ever breed BACK to a WGSL female (I'm keeping a male), to me that would be a dead-end.  The WGSL in this breeding has some older blood much closer up (I mean dogs from before the split/WGSL set type, dogs that WL breeders want to see in their pedigrees).  Yes the WGSL gene pool "tends to be" bottlenecked but I'm looking at a real dog and a real pedigree that's nothing like what you'd see of the BSZS VA dogs.  I've trained and titled my dog from age 7 weeks I know what he is and what he isn't as far as what has actually been expressed.  Given the pedigree and future goals of THIS specific combination I would do it.  I can't think of any other SL/WL combos I'd entertain at this point, with this particular dog, but I don't make breeding decisions based on what-ifs and generalities or the crappy results other people got because they thought breeding a cross meant SL for looks and WL for temperament.  I only decide by closely examining the actual pedigree and dogs.  But this is just proving my point that every breeding needs careful planning.  I am not speaking in general terms about SL/WL combos.  There are only certain pedigrees I think would work with my dog, SL ones included.  I am doing it because I want the result (I want to own it and work it), not to sell puppies to some people that think SL/WL combos are some perfect middle ground.

Eisenhaus is correct.
You tend to see more single purpose WGSL Police K9's-as in detection dogs,
explosives, narcotics etc than you will dual purpose. The bulk of the dual
purpose GSD K9's you come across are working lines. That is not to say a
good strong SL cannot be a dual purpose, it's just that they are few and far
between when it comes to the role of a dual purpose dog. They are out there,
but not in large numbers when you sit back and compare them to the WL brothers
and sisters. Sad part is? The WGSL that do make it as a dual purpose K9 are the 
ones that should be bred! But they are usually passed up because they are not a
deep mahoghany red & black, not VA etc etc. I obviously have a preference for a
good solid WL GSD, but I can admire, respect and appreciate a good solid dog
of ANY line, breed, type etc!

It will be interesting indeed VK, as the 'DDR' type dogs are almost
as closely linebred and bottlenecked as Fero and the WGSL 

The breed needs diversity in the lines for sure as a whole, no 
type is excluded from that need, but the SL-WL cross has been 
bandied about for many years now since the 'split'. It was not such
an ordeal way back, but now days? It is a big deal. Those serious
breeders that have been at this for a few years and have developed 
a breeding program of their own, and by that I mean at least a couple
generations of their 'own' breedings, not imports etc, well if those
breeders would be honest and forthright with you, they will tell you
that you likely will not get the 'finished' product you are hoping to
get within that first generation 'cross'. It will take a good 2 or 3
generations to actually be able to tell if what you planned really
did indeed work. One generation will not tell you that.  

some observations; K Fuller [RIP] titled many Show line dogs in HGH from the 1980s until his death last year. I do not recall his kennel  associated with working line since the famous "U'' liter v Kirschental. If you look back at most working line dogs pedigrees you will find show or high lines. You will not find working blood lines in the ''top'' show dogs, in fact they are increasingly dominated by "Q" liter Weinerau, with the other old pillars of the high lines disappearing rapidly. Try to find desendents of Marko Cellerland or Mutz vd Peltzteirland in todays High lines. You will find them behind working lines. Even now Canto v Weinerau is quickly disappearing from todays lines which are in vogue. I would argue that the working lines are in a far less ''bottle necked'' group of blood lines. This data base is great for tracing dogs back to the orgin of the breed. Each year the SV has a chart in the december issue of ''Der Zeitung'' which shows the male and female V and VA lines all the way back to Horand. There is also a chart of the working lines in the same issue. Compare how many avenues to the ''trunk'' line there are for the different graphs.

Maybe most people know something....especially in the hundreds of clubs and LE depts across the country. There will always be examples of anything you want to promote....but the key to me is whether its consistent.....15years ago I did a WL/SL mix and kept the pick puppy. Titled the dog in SCH and took HIT in protection for his one. Good lookin dog too! But out of eight pups only two turned out to the level that I feel is breedable. And I think I know a little bit about bloodlines....but I saw the same things in the majority of the litter that Workingdogz wrote about in his post.....that's not a high enough satisfactory rate for me....of course their may be people much more skilled than me in attempting this, but from the dogs I have seen out of these mixes I have seen too many pets and problems to justify the exceptions.

Could somone explain to me what the benefits would be to the WL to do this cross. I am not sure if I understand correctly but some say they do to improve WL structure but I see many V-rated WL which are very nice looking dogs.

If your shoes are tied wrong, first you have to untie them before you start tying them right. I feel the same way with the different lines.....the more the unbalance in the genetics the more you have to compensate in going forward to acheive a healthy balance. If you are going to do this type of breeding you have to be willing to take the progeny and go back the the less saturated lines to achieve balance. Most people who do this breeding are folks that take a WL to SL to improve the temperament of the SL, then they go right back to showlines again. DUH!!! You see far less of WL going to SL to improve structure or color, because the WL breeders know that you bring a strong concentration of blood in nerve and hardness that they cannot afford to introduce......I could be wrong about this??????

Why would WL bring in SL to improve structure when WL people do not like SL structure?  If a dog has bad structure it probably shouldn't be bred, period.  Honestly I think a good deal of WL have better structure (and some even going too far with the SL type structure).

Wow, silly me...I guess I didn't realize all showline dogs just carry so much crap with them,to some no accomplishment is good enough,
And I guess a detection dog on the polce force only shows a dog has a good sense of smell, cops may as well use a basset hound...
I guess I had some sort of mis-belief that dogs had to be trained in other venues other then detection. Again silly me.
I guess the only right dog to breed for is one that can compete on the sch field, no stability as a working/family dog.
Take them out, work them, then put them "away" until you got time for them again. Got it...

However, I think I will pass on that as my goal for a "perfect German Shepherd".