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by supakamario on 01 February 2013 - 08:02
@ hoar (something i learned here), wantin a pup isnt a good reason to breed, just go buy another pup(im not gonna tell u like i was told and to go get a rescue)
u want 1, what about the other 6-11 pups, that u may not be able to sell to good homes because of the mix, if u cant keep them for 15 years, and u sell them to whoever will give u 3dollars for them because if killing ur pocket and time..........they will prob end up in shelters, which is selfish, when u could just go buy another buy (from a person that breed mixes)
u want 1, what about the other 6-11 pups, that u may not be able to sell to good homes because of the mix, if u cant keep them for 15 years, and u sell them to whoever will give u 3dollars for them because if killing ur pocket and time..........they will prob end up in shelters, which is selfish, when u could just go buy another buy (from a person that breed mixes)
by kitkat3478 on 01 February 2013 - 12:02
hora-no need to end this thread, this is one of the ways we learn things.
I myself however would like to see those that opposed to this, that have either done it themselves, or KNOW others that have and say it was unsuccessful elaborate WHY they say it was no good. What was wrong with the dogs they produced and maybe WHY they even tried it in the first place.
And I do take it personal, so last night I did some looking up kennels that do mix showline and working line dogs,
Some of the "respectable competition" breeders that seem to feel it is worth trying are Sibersee, Huerta and Eichenluft .
Sure would be nice if they might comment on WHY it works for them.
I also sent an e-mail to my dogs trooper after feeling slighted by my dogs abilities and while he probably laughed about my dismay, he did send me this response;
Joni,
Reddy is a multi purpose patrol dog. He is trained in narcotics detection, tracking, handler protection as well as site security. He exceeds the training required by the NYState dept of criminal justice services.
Many dogs fail out of the training that Reddy has achieved because of the stress, required agility and skill that it takes.
I will send you a couple pictures of the bad boy tomorrow when I have some time.
I myself however would like to see those that opposed to this, that have either done it themselves, or KNOW others that have and say it was unsuccessful elaborate WHY they say it was no good. What was wrong with the dogs they produced and maybe WHY they even tried it in the first place.
And I do take it personal, so last night I did some looking up kennels that do mix showline and working line dogs,
Some of the "respectable competition" breeders that seem to feel it is worth trying are Sibersee, Huerta and Eichenluft .
Sure would be nice if they might comment on WHY it works for them.
I also sent an e-mail to my dogs trooper after feeling slighted by my dogs abilities and while he probably laughed about my dismay, he did send me this response;
Joni,
Reddy is a multi purpose patrol dog. He is trained in narcotics detection, tracking, handler protection as well as site security. He exceeds the training required by the NYState dept of criminal justice services.
Many dogs fail out of the training that Reddy has achieved because of the stress, required agility and skill that it takes.
I will send you a couple pictures of the bad boy tomorrow when I have some time.
by Runag on 01 February 2013 - 13:02
Hi all
Surely you can get good and bad puppies from any breeding. All high line puppies are not winners and all working dog lines are not good at working. Surely the German Shepherd is just that and breeders are breeding for preferred characteristics such as character, nerve, tail set, ears, coat and eye colour and health.
My dog is a mix of show and work (german high line and Daelenberghutte/police(uk)/show here in UK. Temperament - steady as a rock. Looks - well maybe not as showy as the show folks would like but I think he is great. Good hips, no nerves, loves his family, is willing to work and has good potential - what more could you want? Above all, he is healthy!!
Surely you can get good and bad puppies from any breeding. All high line puppies are not winners and all working dog lines are not good at working. Surely the German Shepherd is just that and breeders are breeding for preferred characteristics such as character, nerve, tail set, ears, coat and eye colour and health.
My dog is a mix of show and work (german high line and Daelenberghutte/police(uk)/show here in UK. Temperament - steady as a rock. Looks - well maybe not as showy as the show folks would like but I think he is great. Good hips, no nerves, loves his family, is willing to work and has good potential - what more could you want? Above all, he is healthy!!
by Gustav on 01 February 2013 - 15:02
@ Kitkat....I have never said that SL are crap, I point out general deficiencies based on genetic imbalance, and performance shortcomings. I don't do emotions, I do reality. I constantly point out that some sport lines have more drive than brains, I guess that means sport lines are crap....lol, using police as a validation? I might have sent more dogs to police ( both bred and arranged), than you have bred, maybe I know what they are looking for. I am happy for you and your dogs, and commend you for breeding dogs that are successful, but stomping your feet and taking it personal doesn't change facts. Citing 10 kennels out of thousands doesn't prove a point, and lastly, 2 out of 10 dogs being dysplastic in a litter with good balanced genetics and strong working quality, (80%), is higher than the norm for the breed in this area overall, though it might meet your personal standard.
We can agree to disagree without being disagreeable....can't we? There are obviously people that support your view, and a few that support mind, but the most important thing is that we are producing good dogs....wouldn't you agree.?
yes, I am one who has done the SL/WL cross, ironically, I sent the sire to the NY State police after the breeding where he completed patrol dog school and was assigned to the Governor's mansion, the son that I kept went to NJ police dept after I titled him.....but six of eight in that litter I didnot consider breedable. Two of the pups had aggression issues that the nerve couldn't cap the aggression, one dog was hyper in prey in that the nerve wasn't strong enough to cap the drive, one was soft as butter and another was a fear biter, one went to Deleware State Police, he is 14years Old, still living, and the officer just got another dog through me this year that he is in love with. Yes, I got a couple of good dogs, but if you hated mt hip statistics of 2out of 10, then certainlcertainly you can understand my feelings on this
, and my female SL was strong through Mutz and Quanto with impeccable temperament....that's why I thought it would work.....but truthfully in my head I was not surprised at the outcome because I knew genetics would trump my hopes. Still. I gave it a shot.....once!
We can agree to disagree without being disagreeable....can't we? There are obviously people that support your view, and a few that support mind, but the most important thing is that we are producing good dogs....wouldn't you agree.?
yes, I am one who has done the SL/WL cross, ironically, I sent the sire to the NY State police after the breeding where he completed patrol dog school and was assigned to the Governor's mansion, the son that I kept went to NJ police dept after I titled him.....but six of eight in that litter I didnot consider breedable. Two of the pups had aggression issues that the nerve couldn't cap the aggression, one dog was hyper in prey in that the nerve wasn't strong enough to cap the drive, one was soft as butter and another was a fear biter, one went to Deleware State Police, he is 14years Old, still living, and the officer just got another dog through me this year that he is in love with. Yes, I got a couple of good dogs, but if you hated mt hip statistics of 2out of 10, then certainlcertainly you can understand my feelings on this
, and my female SL was strong through Mutz and Quanto with impeccable temperament....that's why I thought it would work.....but truthfully in my head I was not surprised at the outcome because I knew genetics would trump my hopes. Still. I gave it a shot.....once!by kitkat3478 on 01 February 2013 - 16:02
Thank you Gustav for that response. That is the kind of info I am looking for.And yes we are all trying to produce the best dogs we possibly can.
And I am certain you more than likely have sent more dogs to police than I have bred.
My goal is only to be able to have dogs that CAN make it as police K-9, or to excel on a sport field and STILL be a welcome addition to a family setting.
And although I habe only my one big brag, I personally am delighted.
That is one more than a lot of breeders get.
So I am sorry, but it is hard for me to not take it personal.
I do not want to ever become the kind of breeder that produces more dogs than I can keep track of, and BTW, I do value your opinions and knowledge of the breed.
And I am certain you more than likely have sent more dogs to police than I have bred.
My goal is only to be able to have dogs that CAN make it as police K-9, or to excel on a sport field and STILL be a welcome addition to a family setting.
And although I habe only my one big brag, I personally am delighted.
That is one more than a lot of breeders get.
So I am sorry, but it is hard for me to not take it personal.
I do not want to ever become the kind of breeder that produces more dogs than I can keep track of, and BTW, I do value your opinions and knowledge of the breed.
by workingdogz on 01 February 2013 - 18:02
Gustav
Kitkat;
Once again, please read this part thoroughly:
No one has called show line dogs crap. At least I have not.
Please stop trying to make it seem like people who don't share your
opinion look like they are calling your dogs or anyone elses crap.
Do less than stellar SL exist? Absolutely!
Do less than stellar WL exist? Again, absolutley!
To list the names of 3 kennels that have done or are doing/planning on
SL-WL crosses seems kind of lame, Silbersee doesn't seem to have
any of the progeny of their SL-WL cross, so one would likely assume
that none of those progeny met their criteria by that fact wouldn't they?
Afterall, Silbersee stated they had planned the breeding for some time
and it was for themselves first and foremost. So, no progeny of that
breeding listed on their webpage. Makes you wonder why doesn't it?
Perhaps because there was no consistency in that litter, and maybe
there wasn't the type and temperment that they had hoped to achieve
from that breeding? I cannot speak to the breedings Eichenluft has done,
and Huerta Hof has just started to do such breedings, so again,
one must wait until the dust settles before citing them as shining examples
of how this type of breeding 'works' or doesn't.
Without putting you on the defensive, would you mind answering a couple
questions? How many litters have you bred to date? How many puppies
have been produced from those litters? How many have passed OFA or
'a stamped'? How many have gone on to become single or dual purpose
Police K9's? How many have gone on to become titled in some format?
And how many went to homes as family companions? And out of those
litters, how many were SL-WL crosses? And lastly, of those numbers,
how many generations out are you now in your breeding program, and
of those dogs, how many are SL-WL crosses?
You see, I bet if you start to add the numbers up, you will understand
what both Gustav and I have been trying to gently get across, this is not
usually a successful type of breeding. If you take the time to add those
numbers up and break them down into different categories, I think you
will better understand what most have been trying to say. It's not just about
the immediate progeny of that type of cross, it is what they in turn bring back
to the table when bred later on.
Ideally those attempting it have all the best of intentions and goals in mind,
and are not just doing the breeding to have puppies to sell, but the reality is,
most times the breeding does not turn out as hoped. Doesn't mean the resulting
progeny do not make good companions etc, just not dogs that are going to do well
in showing or working etc. What you are promoting is nothing new, it's been
tried for many years now, and the results are almost always the same.
It is simply more predictable to breed phenotype and genotype together
and hope it all clicks right than it is to try to throw two wild cards together
and expect overall uniformity etc. If it did, we'd have no opposition to this
type of breeding done.
Kitkat;
Once again, please read this part thoroughly:
No one has called show line dogs crap. At least I have not.
Please stop trying to make it seem like people who don't share your
opinion look like they are calling your dogs or anyone elses crap.
Do less than stellar SL exist? Absolutely!
Do less than stellar WL exist? Again, absolutley!
To list the names of 3 kennels that have done or are doing/planning on
SL-WL crosses seems kind of lame, Silbersee doesn't seem to have
any of the progeny of their SL-WL cross, so one would likely assume
that none of those progeny met their criteria by that fact wouldn't they?
Afterall, Silbersee stated they had planned the breeding for some time
and it was for themselves first and foremost. So, no progeny of that
breeding listed on their webpage. Makes you wonder why doesn't it?
Perhaps because there was no consistency in that litter, and maybe
there wasn't the type and temperment that they had hoped to achieve
from that breeding? I cannot speak to the breedings Eichenluft has done,
and Huerta Hof has just started to do such breedings, so again,
one must wait until the dust settles before citing them as shining examples
of how this type of breeding 'works' or doesn't.
Without putting you on the defensive, would you mind answering a couple
questions? How many litters have you bred to date? How many puppies
have been produced from those litters? How many have passed OFA or
'a stamped'? How many have gone on to become single or dual purpose
Police K9's? How many have gone on to become titled in some format?
And how many went to homes as family companions? And out of those
litters, how many were SL-WL crosses? And lastly, of those numbers,
how many generations out are you now in your breeding program, and
of those dogs, how many are SL-WL crosses?
You see, I bet if you start to add the numbers up, you will understand
what both Gustav and I have been trying to gently get across, this is not
usually a successful type of breeding. If you take the time to add those
numbers up and break them down into different categories, I think you
will better understand what most have been trying to say. It's not just about
the immediate progeny of that type of cross, it is what they in turn bring back
to the table when bred later on.
Ideally those attempting it have all the best of intentions and goals in mind,
and are not just doing the breeding to have puppies to sell, but the reality is,
most times the breeding does not turn out as hoped. Doesn't mean the resulting
progeny do not make good companions etc, just not dogs that are going to do well
in showing or working etc. What you are promoting is nothing new, it's been
tried for many years now, and the results are almost always the same.
It is simply more predictable to breed phenotype and genotype together
and hope it all clicks right than it is to try to throw two wild cards together
and expect overall uniformity etc. If it did, we'd have no opposition to this
type of breeding done.
by eddyelevation on 01 February 2013 - 22:02
runag great looking dog...............
by Runag on 01 February 2013 - 22:02
>Eddyelevation<
Thanks, I thought no-one was going to notice him :-))
Thanks, I thought no-one was going to notice him :-))
by eddyelevation on 01 February 2013 - 22:02
curious how much does he weigh?
by Runag on 01 February 2013 - 23:02
41.5 kilos (6.5 stones) at last weigh in. He is 22months so don't think he will get much heavier.
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