This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Prager on 23 February 2013 - 18:02
I do not see definition of submission or "submissive" or attempt to generate one here yet.
That is why the confusion. Everybody talks about different thing. As we say in Czech somebody talks about wagon and somebody about goat.
I'd say this, every response of the dog to your command is based on this premise. Dog wants something from you, and you want something from the dog.
Thus if you want something from the dog, then the dog must do it before he gets what he wants for himself which will be delivered by you. Thus he must submit to your wishes by responding. Skilled trainer does it in such a way that the dog is happy and and other trainer may do it in such a way that the dog is not too happy.
Nobody is suggesting that the dog being submissive is only a dog who "grovels in front of you". However without submission there is no training, no response, no happy dog, no sad dog, no control, no reliability, no relationship, no obedience, no protection, no tracking no agility, no Schutzhund..... .
This premise may be used properly or improperly. That is up to the trainer. Thus you can not say that submission per se is good or bad . What is good or bad is how the trainer applies the rule mentioned above and repeated below..
Dog wants something from you while you want something from the dog.
You go to work because you want to get paycheck from the boss. You may love your work or you may hate it. But while you are at work you must submit to your bosses' wishes or you will get negative correction in form of getting fired.
Prager Hans
That is why the confusion. Everybody talks about different thing. As we say in Czech somebody talks about wagon and somebody about goat.
I'd say this, every response of the dog to your command is based on this premise. Dog wants something from you, and you want something from the dog.
Thus if you want something from the dog, then the dog must do it before he gets what he wants for himself which will be delivered by you. Thus he must submit to your wishes by responding. Skilled trainer does it in such a way that the dog is happy and and other trainer may do it in such a way that the dog is not too happy.
Nobody is suggesting that the dog being submissive is only a dog who "grovels in front of you". However without submission there is no training, no response, no happy dog, no sad dog, no control, no reliability, no relationship, no obedience, no protection, no tracking no agility, no Schutzhund..... .
This premise may be used properly or improperly. That is up to the trainer. Thus you can not say that submission per se is good or bad . What is good or bad is how the trainer applies the rule mentioned above and repeated below..
Dog wants something from you while you want something from the dog.
You go to work because you want to get paycheck from the boss. You may love your work or you may hate it. But while you are at work you must submit to your bosses' wishes or you will get negative correction in form of getting fired.
Prager Hans
by Hundmutter on 23 February 2013 - 19:02
RS and Joan - not suggesting all bitches do this ! Just some
'submissive' behaviour seen over the years LOL. I don't recall
the last time I saw ANY male, of any breed, do it (apart from
actual cruelty cases, which isn't what I was talking about).
Hey, I'm just as keen on not doing females, of any species,
down, as you are ...
'submissive' behaviour seen over the years LOL. I don't recall
the last time I saw ANY male, of any breed, do it (apart from
actual cruelty cases, which isn't what I was talking about).
Hey, I'm just as keen on not doing females, of any species,
down, as you are ...
by Red Sable on 23 February 2013 - 19:02
LOL, I"ve had one and it was a DDR male. 
by Hundmutter on 23 February 2013 - 21:02
RS Hee Hee Hee - well, there ya go !
by Vixen on 23 February 2013 - 21:02
I personally feel Respect is paramount. Good appropriate training and interaction to gain a dog's respect - this, the Owner/Trainer needs to earn (cannot demand)! When you have your dog's respect, he/she will feel proud to respond. Working and relaxing together continues to nourish the relationship and build a very special bond.
Some people only see the 'exercise' to be taught and produced - rather than 'feel' each element between them both. There is an unspoken language to enter into with a dog - some people talk without listening ...
Vixen
Some people only see the 'exercise' to be taught and produced - rather than 'feel' each element between them both. There is an unspoken language to enter into with a dog - some people talk without listening ...
Vixen
by MightyZeus on 23 February 2013 - 23:02
Submission is a dog that understands it's place in the pack and knows that the leader position is taken and therefore it cannot be contested. I don't need a dog that thinks that he's the leader and decides what it wants to do or chooses whether guests are allowed to visit or not (to mention a few things). If you not leading your dog then they're leading you and being a leader doesn't mean that you're cruel, it means having a clear structure so that the dog knows and understands the rules and is not punished unfairly for things that it never knew were off limits. In order for a clear structure to exist then you must engage your regularly so that it understands everything...Do you as a parent feel that your kid is a slave cause he treat you like one of his/her friends? Are houligans and delinquents more "free spirited" cause they do what they want to do compared to their obedient counterparts? Or do they behave the way they want cause of a lack of structure and consequences in their lives? My point is that to assume that a submissive dog is a slave compared to it's raunchier counterpart is obscene! Submissive dogs are just appropreate, they know how to behave in a given situation and they know when to have fun. I also don't understand that submissive dogs don't fare well in protection cause they're insecure or whatever the claim is...that obsurb! Using a Cesar example, have any of you seen his pitbull that passed "daddy" doing protection, TOTALLY DIFFERENT DOG, HE TURNS INTO A DEMONIC PIT BULL.
As far as Cesar causing more harm than good from "people not listening to him fully and half-applying his methods"...who is to blame for that? Is that not one with the logic that condoms should not be sold or advertised cause they encourage sex amongst teen? So what if someone watches Cesar and tries to establish structure and form a better bond with their dog, how bad is that. If you gonna do it, might as well be the safe way. If anything I think that Cesar has dispelled myths and broght alot of trainers work from his disclaimer at the start of his program everytime before he encounters a problamatic dog that; "DO NOT ATTEMPT THESE TECHNIQUES WITHOUT CONSULTING A PROFESSIONAL" (in writing on screen and audio)...and he's also brought on or recommended trainers to alot of people on his show as a means of carrying through what he's taught them. In his DVD "sit and stay the cesar milan way", it's filled with trainers from all types of methods (positive, negative. etc). His emphasis on his tv and dvd is that his way is not the only way. Lastly, Cesar doesn't apply the same method of discipline in each and every case he visits; these are all dependant on the case and intensity of the dog...I could go on and on but I'll try and rip a couple of videos and post them which I doubt whether they'd make any difference but I will for the hell of it.
As far as Cesar causing more harm than good from "people not listening to him fully and half-applying his methods"...who is to blame for that? Is that not one with the logic that condoms should not be sold or advertised cause they encourage sex amongst teen? So what if someone watches Cesar and tries to establish structure and form a better bond with their dog, how bad is that. If you gonna do it, might as well be the safe way. If anything I think that Cesar has dispelled myths and broght alot of trainers work from his disclaimer at the start of his program everytime before he encounters a problamatic dog that; "DO NOT ATTEMPT THESE TECHNIQUES WITHOUT CONSULTING A PROFESSIONAL" (in writing on screen and audio)...and he's also brought on or recommended trainers to alot of people on his show as a means of carrying through what he's taught them. In his DVD "sit and stay the cesar milan way", it's filled with trainers from all types of methods (positive, negative. etc). His emphasis on his tv and dvd is that his way is not the only way. Lastly, Cesar doesn't apply the same method of discipline in each and every case he visits; these are all dependant on the case and intensity of the dog...I could go on and on but I'll try and rip a couple of videos and post them which I doubt whether they'd make any difference but I will for the hell of it.
by Gustav on 24 February 2013 - 01:02
Excellent post MZ....good plain rational thinking and common sense is what you just wrote. 
by Prager on 24 February 2013 - 02:02
MZ your biggest problem is that you make sense.
by EduCanine on 27 February 2013 - 17:02
I like Cesar for what he's done as far as bringing certain aspects of dog ownership goes. He's helped bring to light the importantance of balancing the relationships and exercise. That's all he's done really, IMO. He is not a trainer or a behaviourist.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
