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by susie on 25 February 2013 - 22:02
Eddy, that´s too one sided -
besides any salesmanship they had a vision and they were convinced to do the right - in breeding only history shows if you are right or wrong - and in different cases ( health, genetics ) they were right.
besides any salesmanship they had a vision and they were convinced to do the right - in breeding only history shows if you are right or wrong - and in different cases ( health, genetics ) they were right.
by eddyelevation on 25 February 2013 - 22:02
yes................nonetheless we must ask ourselves in the breed better off because of their shenanigans??
by Ibrahim on 26 February 2013 - 21:02
Thanks GSD Lineage, you were extremely nice and positive, thanks Eddy, Susie and dear Gustav for posting.
Looks like few are ready to listen and fewer are willing to speak up. We can, if we wish to, sum up a speach and high light most important points that were raised. That was all I asked for and I thought many would benefit from hearing the words of one of the most successful breeders in the history of the breed. Anyway I would like to say myself a few words to Walter Martin as a tribute: Walter you did what you did better than anyone else, at your time no one reached your high lands, your dogs are still living through thousands of offspring, no matter what some think of the type of GSD you promoted you were and shalll remain a legend in the history of GSD breed.
P.S: No need for anyone to feel obliged to comment, I consider it a done thread.
Ibrahim
Looks like few are ready to listen and fewer are willing to speak up. We can, if we wish to, sum up a speach and high light most important points that were raised. That was all I asked for and I thought many would benefit from hearing the words of one of the most successful breeders in the history of the breed. Anyway I would like to say myself a few words to Walter Martin as a tribute: Walter you did what you did better than anyone else, at your time no one reached your high lands, your dogs are still living through thousands of offspring, no matter what some think of the type of GSD you promoted you were and shalll remain a legend in the history of GSD breed.
P.S: No need for anyone to feel obliged to comment, I consider it a done thread.
Ibrahim
by Markobytes on 26 February 2013 - 23:02
I have been a little busy but now that it is raining I have had time to watch the first hour. Thank you Ibrahim for making this available. I would like to expound on what Ibrahim said " The problem is in the successors who were not creative and kept doing the same combinations" When asked a question regarding whether a Kormeister"s advice had to be followed Martin spoke about breeders knowing their dogs. He knew what type he wanted, he didn't care about what other breeders were doing, he wasn't trying to follow them. He didn't mean for others to copy what he was doing in fact he said it was no good. I have seen many examples of followers from people that are playing breeder, they don't have the time or the energy to really understand the breed. They are not content to produce a good dog, they don't know what one is. Don't blame Jimmy or the Martins, blame the followers.
Eddy I hope you were paying attention to the description of how a GSD propels itself. The prevalence of over angulation tends us to ignore under angulation.
There was some good subject matter that could be explored further, I heard one point that intrigues me as it touches on something that I have given some thought. I am curious as to what the other two hours will bring and I may comment further. I too am willing to hear as much as I can from those knowledgeable of the influential dogs of the past.
Eddy I hope you were paying attention to the description of how a GSD propels itself. The prevalence of over angulation tends us to ignore under angulation.
There was some good subject matter that could be explored further, I heard one point that intrigues me as it touches on something that I have given some thought. I am curious as to what the other two hours will bring and I may comment further. I too am willing to hear as much as I can from those knowledgeable of the influential dogs of the past.
by Gustav on 27 February 2013 - 03:02
Ibrahim, I have seen the interview many years ago.....so I wasn't ignoring it.
by Ibrahim on 27 February 2013 - 05:02
Gustav, I didn't mean you, you stated your views hundred times on relevant topics, but ofcourse any contribution from you will still be appreciated as always. You say you saw the interview many years ago, what about others who have just seen it?! they can now listen to the man himself in addition to what they heard or what they read and decide for themselves was this man good or bad for what he did.
I myself reached a point where Martin to me became second to Binladen, one destroyed peace, the other destroyed temperament. I think I feel guilty after listening with open heart to what he had to say. I was surprised he spoke about temperament and what goes in dog's head in same passion he spoke about reach. I was surprised he spoke about total balance in structure, he said over hind angulation is no good, he was obviously happy talking about hardness in some of the GSDs he knew. He praised previous and present (then) breeders, frankly speaking I wasn't psychologically expecting to hear from him some of what he pressed on. I think, maybe, some of what was written and said about him didn't do him justice. I have no personal interest in him other than what I could benefit from his experience and appreciation for his dedication to what he did and excelling at what he did. He admitted he made mistakes and some wrong choices, he didn't claim he had it all or did it all.
Just to simply put it, not all what you say Gustav appeals to me, yet I am ready to listen to you with open heart and ears, your age, your experience, the dogs you put hands on, the breeding you did, the dogs you trained, the people you inter-shared views with etc etc would make me an additional fool if I shut myself off you.
We should listen to what the man said, think, re think, evaluate, re evaluate and the first step to that is individuals high light major points he touched like GSD Lineage and Markobytes (intelligently) phrased.
I am sorry the bitter way I felt overwhelmed me in my previous post. As Americans say, it's a free world, I don't think I should expect every one to think and feel the same way I do !!!
Ibrahim
I myself reached a point where Martin to me became second to Binladen, one destroyed peace, the other destroyed temperament. I think I feel guilty after listening with open heart to what he had to say. I was surprised he spoke about temperament and what goes in dog's head in same passion he spoke about reach. I was surprised he spoke about total balance in structure, he said over hind angulation is no good, he was obviously happy talking about hardness in some of the GSDs he knew. He praised previous and present (then) breeders, frankly speaking I wasn't psychologically expecting to hear from him some of what he pressed on. I think, maybe, some of what was written and said about him didn't do him justice. I have no personal interest in him other than what I could benefit from his experience and appreciation for his dedication to what he did and excelling at what he did. He admitted he made mistakes and some wrong choices, he didn't claim he had it all or did it all.
Just to simply put it, not all what you say Gustav appeals to me, yet I am ready to listen to you with open heart and ears, your age, your experience, the dogs you put hands on, the breeding you did, the dogs you trained, the people you inter-shared views with etc etc would make me an additional fool if I shut myself off you.
We should listen to what the man said, think, re think, evaluate, re evaluate and the first step to that is individuals high light major points he touched like GSD Lineage and Markobytes (intelligently) phrased.
I am sorry the bitter way I felt overwhelmed me in my previous post. As Americans say, it's a free world, I don't think I should expect every one to think and feel the same way I do !!!
Ibrahim
by Gustav on 27 February 2013 - 12:02
Ibrahim, sigh, ....I am not one who has hatred for the Martins or anything else. Nor do I expect people to blindly follow my beliefs( or at this point I pretty much am divorcing from myself from caring), and my views on many things are still ever evolving. I have a very practical view of the world and of dogs...this is not always popular but it has served me well.
Little story, my daughters, 33,37, were laughing at me at how understanding a grandparent I am. One daughter remarked, Daddy remember when we were kids and what you said to me when I said to you I didn't love you I loved Mommy. I said yes... I said I don't care if you love me why you live under this roof, but you will respect me,.....and then when you get old enough to understand why I do and say what I do, then maybe that respect will turn to love! They both laughed and said, it worked! My kids are well educated and successful and both fantastic mothers that set boundaries!
Back to the Martin's, everything has to be in context...when the WM gave the interview in the States, it is important to recognize that his audience was probably a larger group of working type people then SV show diehards. America only in past 15 years has seen the growth of the conformation in USCA and the majority of Sch clubs. I am sure WM was not unaware of this, and he said many things that resonated with his audience. The problem is there is a twenty year body of work for folks to compare the actions of WM with his remarks. I also ALWAYS said to my kids that if you tell me one thing and you do another, I will always take your actions as being the real you....that's just me!
in closing, I think if you would look into the working lines today that have the breathtaking structure that are sometimes posted, you will see that dogs like Mutz and Marko are often the breakaway from the current show type. These dogs were systemically purged from the show world. Wise decision?.......I won't comment. Canto had known health and temperament issues in his immediate family,( find out why he never went VA), and HIGH placements in the Seiger show have always been based on phenotypeand genotype.....it is difficult for me to understand how a dog that could not go VA BECAUSE of negative reasons could become the most linebred on dog for the next 40 to 50 years to include the twenty years of the Martin rule.it didn't make sense to me over the years, and goes against basic breeding practices for the maintenance of overall vigor.
No, I am not going to comment, I have nothing negative to say, I just raise points of facts and let people do their own research, look at what has evolved and come to rational conclusions
.
Little story, my daughters, 33,37, were laughing at me at how understanding a grandparent I am. One daughter remarked, Daddy remember when we were kids and what you said to me when I said to you I didn't love you I loved Mommy. I said yes... I said I don't care if you love me why you live under this roof, but you will respect me,.....and then when you get old enough to understand why I do and say what I do, then maybe that respect will turn to love! They both laughed and said, it worked! My kids are well educated and successful and both fantastic mothers that set boundaries!
Back to the Martin's, everything has to be in context...when the WM gave the interview in the States, it is important to recognize that his audience was probably a larger group of working type people then SV show diehards. America only in past 15 years has seen the growth of the conformation in USCA and the majority of Sch clubs. I am sure WM was not unaware of this, and he said many things that resonated with his audience. The problem is there is a twenty year body of work for folks to compare the actions of WM with his remarks. I also ALWAYS said to my kids that if you tell me one thing and you do another, I will always take your actions as being the real you....that's just me!
in closing, I think if you would look into the working lines today that have the breathtaking structure that are sometimes posted, you will see that dogs like Mutz and Marko are often the breakaway from the current show type. These dogs were systemically purged from the show world. Wise decision?.......I won't comment. Canto had known health and temperament issues in his immediate family,( find out why he never went VA), and HIGH placements in the Seiger show have always been based on phenotypeand genotype.....it is difficult for me to understand how a dog that could not go VA BECAUSE of negative reasons could become the most linebred on dog for the next 40 to 50 years to include the twenty years of the Martin rule.it didn't make sense to me over the years, and goes against basic breeding practices for the maintenance of overall vigor.
No, I am not going to comment, I have nothing negative to say, I just raise points of facts and let people do their own research, look at what has evolved and come to rational conclusions
. by eddyelevation on 27 February 2013 - 14:02
i posted a quote on here by a legendary working line breeder,,,,,,,,,,,,,and no one replied or acknowledged it............
maybe walter martin knew a lot but the result is always in the pudding............look at the GSD he left us with today and look at the old GSD's...........
i dont know what exactly motivated him but from what i have read, not quite sure it was the well being of the breed?? or maybe it was but his vision was obviously not a great one
maybe walter martin knew a lot but the result is always in the pudding............look at the GSD he left us with today and look at the old GSD's...........
i dont know what exactly motivated him but from what i have read, not quite sure it was the well being of the breed?? or maybe it was but his vision was obviously not a great one
by gsdstudent on 27 February 2013 - 14:02
excellant forum!!! "V" rated. The balanceing statement from Koos of tiekerhook Kennels should get everyone thinking. "Eddy'' provided a quote a few days ago but did not say who made it. Go to the Tiekerhook Kennel web site for another view of the Martins. The SV has had only Conformation judges/ KoerMiesters as President up to the election of Herr Henke the current SV top gun. He is a working judge but more important to the SV he is an international businessman. They went to a businessman to run the club over conformation people because of the dire problems they were having with finances. A more rounded breed is a quest that will never end.
by e c street on 28 February 2013 - 05:02
Eddy, you refer to the shenanigans of the Martin brothers. I have never heard of any shenanigans by them. Would you please list a few to which you refer? ecs
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