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by eddyelevation on 08 March 2013 - 11:03
i'm suddenly a troll because i dare to ask questions??.....................
by Blitzen on 08 March 2013 - 13:03
It's not sudden.
In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
by Silbersee on 08 March 2013 - 16:03
I think that people generalize too much with statements like the Martin brothers and especially Walter Martin are to blame for what the GSD breed has become.
He had a vision of what his ideal GSD should look and be like and fulfilled his dream. Being a very charismatic man, he had lots of followers. Make no mistake! Not every Wienerau dog carrying his kennel name actually was one. Many other people bred under his kennel name back then there was no limit on how many litters or leasings a breeder can have. I talked to a few years ago and the deal was that he would sign the necessary papework when the litter was ready to leave and he had first choice, but if he did decide to keep a puppy he would actually pay for it. When you look at the website his stepson used to maintain (has not been updated for 2 or 3 years now), he was a driven man and his perfection was Siegerin Vanta! I do remember the Sieger Show of 1994 when 3 Wienerau females were in the VA-group - Vanta (1), Nathalie (6) and Wanni (4). I stood right next to them and could not decide which one was more perfect (Nathalie was my personal favorite). I would have loved to see him continue but he and his brother Herman died in the summer of 1996 within 2 weeks from each other. The news made the rounds at the 1996 Sieger Show that Walter had died and we all thought that it was a mistake since everybody expected bad news about Hermann since he had late stage cancer. But it turned out to be true. More than 16 years have gone by and the showline GSD has developed further. 16 years are about 4 to 5 dog generations gone by. I would like to think that Walter Martin would not have approved of some of the developments like the pronounced hind angulation and the heavy fronts and especially not the temperament. He was quoted in saying that every third generation, you have to breed to a "crazy" dog to not loose the hardness. I might be wrong in that opinion but ever since Zamb vd Wienerau and Jeck vom Noricum, we have not had any noteworthy legends in the showlines anymore. Dogs like Vegas, Pakros, Tyson and Quenn could have been up there but for me there is no direction anymore because of the sore lack of leadership and guidance by respected oldtime breeders. Nowadays, the SV is rocked with news and rumors about greed, forged trial results and health records and money laundering. I cannot judge what is true and what is only assumptions but truth be told, I don't even want to know anymore.
For me and my family, the interest began to fade when Peter Messler left. He was VP under Hermann Martin and took over after his death. He wanted to create more diversity and was credited for Timo vom Berrekasten's rise as a sable dog. He was also quoted to have said "to show him a great black dog and he will put him up". Believe it or not, even Walter and Herman Martin were very concerned with the so called genetic bottle neck. And yes, I think that they knew a lot of it was their mistake by favoring the certain type of dog they had envisioned - the black and dark red plush coated stallion type male. They were always looking for alternative lines. In the early 90s, I had a discussion about that with Baldur Schulte, breeder "vom Hirschel". We had just bred my female to his dog Fanto (one of the best dogs ever in our breed) and were sitting in his kitchen. He told me that Hermann was all over him when he first saw Fanto and had asked him where he was hiding him (he was not shown much in his youth days). Within a short time, both were there for breeding. Fanto was an outcross but not really so in the sense that he still was linebred on all three pilars, he just did not have the immediate dogs like Palme, Xaver etc. in his pedigree. However, he did not live up to their hopes in short term. Fanto still lives on in the beautiful daughters he had produced, not many sons. My favorite grandson was Tacko vd Wienerau, owned and bred by Elke-Lore Staab. He was not shown much due to an injury. I had bred one of my females to him but it did not take. I called Mrs. Stab and wanted a repeat but she told me that Tacko had just passed away in an accident. Needless to say that I was heartbroken. Another great Wienerau dog was Jello, owned later by Ron Harris. He should have been utilized more in this country. I wish I could turn time back. As mentioned earlier, not all Wienerau dogs were really out of Walter Martin's breedings. I had one at our house on lease for a couple of months but that was two or three years after Walter Martin had passed. Ero vd Wienerau - a dog with not much drive for anything but that is a subject I really do not want to get into here.
He had a vision of what his ideal GSD should look and be like and fulfilled his dream. Being a very charismatic man, he had lots of followers. Make no mistake! Not every Wienerau dog carrying his kennel name actually was one. Many other people bred under his kennel name back then there was no limit on how many litters or leasings a breeder can have. I talked to a few years ago and the deal was that he would sign the necessary papework when the litter was ready to leave and he had first choice, but if he did decide to keep a puppy he would actually pay for it. When you look at the website his stepson used to maintain (has not been updated for 2 or 3 years now), he was a driven man and his perfection was Siegerin Vanta! I do remember the Sieger Show of 1994 when 3 Wienerau females were in the VA-group - Vanta (1), Nathalie (6) and Wanni (4). I stood right next to them and could not decide which one was more perfect (Nathalie was my personal favorite). I would have loved to see him continue but he and his brother Herman died in the summer of 1996 within 2 weeks from each other. The news made the rounds at the 1996 Sieger Show that Walter had died and we all thought that it was a mistake since everybody expected bad news about Hermann since he had late stage cancer. But it turned out to be true. More than 16 years have gone by and the showline GSD has developed further. 16 years are about 4 to 5 dog generations gone by. I would like to think that Walter Martin would not have approved of some of the developments like the pronounced hind angulation and the heavy fronts and especially not the temperament. He was quoted in saying that every third generation, you have to breed to a "crazy" dog to not loose the hardness. I might be wrong in that opinion but ever since Zamb vd Wienerau and Jeck vom Noricum, we have not had any noteworthy legends in the showlines anymore. Dogs like Vegas, Pakros, Tyson and Quenn could have been up there but for me there is no direction anymore because of the sore lack of leadership and guidance by respected oldtime breeders. Nowadays, the SV is rocked with news and rumors about greed, forged trial results and health records and money laundering. I cannot judge what is true and what is only assumptions but truth be told, I don't even want to know anymore.
For me and my family, the interest began to fade when Peter Messler left. He was VP under Hermann Martin and took over after his death. He wanted to create more diversity and was credited for Timo vom Berrekasten's rise as a sable dog. He was also quoted to have said "to show him a great black dog and he will put him up". Believe it or not, even Walter and Herman Martin were very concerned with the so called genetic bottle neck. And yes, I think that they knew a lot of it was their mistake by favoring the certain type of dog they had envisioned - the black and dark red plush coated stallion type male. They were always looking for alternative lines. In the early 90s, I had a discussion about that with Baldur Schulte, breeder "vom Hirschel". We had just bred my female to his dog Fanto (one of the best dogs ever in our breed) and were sitting in his kitchen. He told me that Hermann was all over him when he first saw Fanto and had asked him where he was hiding him (he was not shown much in his youth days). Within a short time, both were there for breeding. Fanto was an outcross but not really so in the sense that he still was linebred on all three pilars, he just did not have the immediate dogs like Palme, Xaver etc. in his pedigree. However, he did not live up to their hopes in short term. Fanto still lives on in the beautiful daughters he had produced, not many sons. My favorite grandson was Tacko vd Wienerau, owned and bred by Elke-Lore Staab. He was not shown much due to an injury. I had bred one of my females to him but it did not take. I called Mrs. Stab and wanted a repeat but she told me that Tacko had just passed away in an accident. Needless to say that I was heartbroken. Another great Wienerau dog was Jello, owned later by Ron Harris. He should have been utilized more in this country. I wish I could turn time back. As mentioned earlier, not all Wienerau dogs were really out of Walter Martin's breedings. I had one at our house on lease for a couple of months but that was two or three years after Walter Martin had passed. Ero vd Wienerau - a dog with not much drive for anything but that is a subject I really do not want to get into here.
by Ibrahim on 08 March 2013 - 16:03
Thanks Silbersee, an excellent rich informative post, what you said goes with what I heard from Martin in the recording and clarified several points I found strange or rather new to me due to much false descriptions said about the man before.
by eddyelevation on 08 March 2013 - 17:03
excellent post silbersee very informative.......... hope the SV gets back on the right track............
as for the martin type shepherd.............its ok, no one cant say he did not have an impact on the breed...........
good or bad.well thats open to debate?????
as for the martin type shepherd.............its ok, no one cant say he did not have an impact on the breed...........
good or bad.well thats open to debate?????
by aaykay on 08 March 2013 - 23:03
Very informative post, Silbersee. Some very good insights from a person who has been there during these periods. Thank you.
by e c street on 09 March 2013 - 02:03
Eddy, I didnot see your post regarding the Tiekerhof breeder's comments. Tell me where you posted it and I will read it. Give me the date it was posted and the thread name if you will. Maybe I will just learn something. ecs
by e c street on 09 March 2013 - 02:03
Silbersee, thanks for your post. I think your posts are always informative. Thanks. ecs
by e c street on 09 March 2013 - 02:03
Ibrahim, I have never seen the Walter Martin vidio that you posted here. It was very informative and entertaining. In it he said some of the things which did not depict some of the ways the breed has followed in recent years. I had the priviledge of entertaining Walter in my home just as he began to make a name for himself in the breed. He was a very personable man. He had a way of testing Shepherds by simply making a fist and slowly straightening his index finger and slowly bring it back into the fist, back and forth, back and forth The way dogs responded to this was very interesting. I had two bitches from the same litter which looked very similar that he tested this way. One watched a few minutes, got up , went over to him and nuzzelled his fist to investigate what was going on. The other stayed on the floor just watching with a little grumble in her throat. Walter found this very amusing although he never said what his conclusions were. Thank you for giving us this post. ecs
by Ibrahim on 09 March 2013 - 03:03
Thanks ecs for sharing, that is extremely interesting
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