Czech breeders - Page 12

Who is talking about jam? I was not. Dog was jammed. So what.  Shit happens.   Affiliation has nothing to do with saying truth . By that logic I could say that you are anonymous poster "affiliated" with the competition  thus you are not saying truth.   Truth is  truth. And I know the people and the dog  thus I am much closer to the truth on the topic  then your disrespectful assumptions build on some video or opinion of others from a keyboard.  As far as Kim's evaluation I have no problem with it  except mistaking the "lift" for "out".Oh I doubt that he does not know who Carly is and the trainers on videos are. LOL . 

 Biting high or low: 

OK show me dog who is scared and is biting  high on a sleeve. There are none. 

 Yelling. If you do not like yelling during training then do not yell. Constant yelling may be desensitization. So what? That is not what I was saying you switched topic  creating a logical jump  and started to talk about something else. But OK lets talk about desensitization. We sell dogs to prisons there is constant yelling so yelling is good.  But that does not negate my original point. High pitch squealing of decoy is simulating a wounded prey encouraging a fight in prey  a and deep voice accompanied with stick threat or hit is negative threat which teaches the dog to operate in threatening situation. This is not sport competition training. .   And yes you could have desensitization and dealing with negative threat too. This is not either / or proposition. In training session there are many things happening at the same time.  

As far as playing name game you started it. You basically  said that the trainers are not good and that they destroyed the dog and that dog is not taken well the care of.   Which is total BS. So you named few dogs which  you caught OK.  So what ?  Good for you.  And that gives you right to disrespect  people who  titled hundreds of dogs in up to  international level ? And insinuate that they are neglecting a dog?

@Suzi thank you for the video I am familiar with it. The video looks better because it is edited video.  The other video is unedited and done by adverse competition. The trainers are the same in all videos  and the sessions were done in approximately same time. 

 As far as showing same thing on videos,... that is done on purpose for comparison reason. It is hard to compare dissimilar exercises. We would like to show more but there are reasons why we do not . AR  is the main reason.

 As far as ZVV goes the purpose of that system is different then IPO. Thus the attitude of the dog  is different . ZVV is a basically still what SchH  used to be > Test of the WORKING  dog and not whAt SchH and now IPo degenerated into - sport competition.   Thus I understand why you and others may say foundation is different.  Foundation was done by Slovak Police for police work. BTW there are more exercises in ZVV then in IPO and used to be more then now,  but unfortunately  the pressure is for it to be similar to IPO.  

 Prager Hans

If you are desensitized to something then by definition it is no longer a threat. You can't have it both ways.

ANd you are biased.  See other post on your lift thread.  Quit talking what you think you know about the people and LOOK at the training.  Dog avoiding handler, letting go of helper to avoid handler, falling off of the sleeve with no one around.  These are all things on the videos that really did happen that you are glossing over.  The dog should NEVER fall off of the sleeve.  Period.  And he does slip down to the hand on his grip on the last video you posted on the lift topic.  Here on his first video he lets go of the sleeve bite bar and goes down and grabs the hand end of it.  He's being nervy and you don't want to see it because you know his trainers. 

High pitch squealing is exposing the dog to an event that may occur in real life and teaching him to deal with it before it happens.  That would be desensitizing. 

No YOU started the name game.  You said they were responsible for all of these great titles and international champions so it can't be bad training.  It was and it still is bad training, don't care what their names are or what dogs they have titled in the past.  It doesn't give them a free pass./  Today, on this dog, the training is crap.

Susie,

The Video you posted has been edited.

They took out the grip where the dog fell off the sleeve and had to reengage.  Nobody around him,  Helper was swinging him with his feet on the floor and the dog slipped off the sleeve and had to come back and regrip.

Didn't look like the dog let go, looks like he slipped off which is a big concern for me as a helper.

Dog letting go can mean a lot of things.  Dog slipping off of sleeve brings grip strength and committment to the front of the list.  It can also be that his grip is bothered by the electric he is receiving to make him out.  Don't know with out a lot more details for that. 

But he did fall off of the sleeve in that training sequence.

Doesn´t seem to be the same handler, though ( I recognize JN in the first vid, but in the second?)
"Adverse competition" - I really wondered why anybody would be interested to show this vid - no good promotion...

Off topic right now, but in the vid I´m  able to see a lot of new domestic homes. Is there no trouble about the barking of the dogs? Over here residents would hire a laywer and the dogs would have to leave...

I saw it, BZCZ, don´t worry - I was talking about the "outside" sequence on the training filed.

@BZCZ it takes time for the dog to be desensitized to threat. Thus during the training dog sees threat, deals with threat and eventually does not  care for the noise accompanying it because it is not threat. THAT is the training.  Same as soldier is trained not to be afraid of explosions even so he is fully aware of the the danger of the situation. 

 As far as  me "glossing over"  somehting does not make mi bias.  I am talking about one thing . That is a topic of the thread . I can not deal with everything of what is going on on the video. That is not purpose of the "out vs Lift " threat. That does not make me bias. 

Yeah, yeah , yeah,.... the dog came off the sleeve for one reason or anther and had initial bad bite indoors, which if you would speak Czech the decoy said was his fault and on and on. Show me a dog and I'll show you mistakes. What is your point?  And LOL no you started name calling by insinuating that they are mistreating a dog and just drinking beer.  I did not comment on mistake I commented on you being  disrespectful of people you do not know.  Also dog making mistakes  is bad training?  Since when? So you make no mistakes and your dog never makes no mistakes? Mistakes does not mean the dog is bad or the trainer is bad.  All it means that the mistake was made. THIS IS A TRAINING VIDEO  and not a demonstration of perfect dog. Nowhere have I said that the dog did not make mistakes, but what gets me is you immediately saying the dog is ruined and trainers are just doing so that they  have something to talk about  when they drink beer where the fact is that those bad trainers are not  bad despite of mistake they, same as anybody else, make which I attested by hundreds of titles they acquired. That is not being biased but that is saying truth. 

Prager Hans

@ Suzi I may have missed something but I have never seen video anywhere,.. where  Jiri Novotny would not be the handler of Carly. 

Prager Hans

You missed nothing - it´s Jiri, you are right, just reviewed the vid ( I didn´t recognize him, but now I was able to see the moustache )...

It was no helper error that the dog came off.  He was on solid in the middle of the sleeve and he came off.  Just as he moved his grip down to the hand on the other grip. 

I've seen enough sales videos to know the difference between what's being said and what's happening.  I tune out the words and listen to the dogs.

I didn't say they were mistreating him.  I said it was sad.  He never got a single pet that I've seen in four videos now.  He doesn't even come up to them when loose for pets and it took approx 2 minutes of walking to go get the dog and get him out to the parking lot for training.

All of these are facts.

You really want to argue with me that they don't go inside and drink beer after the training?  Really?

Dog is never what he could have been without these mistakes.  He puts his feet first and his ass down on every catch to protect himself from getting jammed.  His true power will never be known. and that's just one example of how he is affected.  A dog getting jammed is not a "so what" event. That's pretty callous.