Czech breeders - Page 4

Paul, it's good to hear that you are pleased with that dog. Joan will be my go-to breeder when I can have another GSD. There is no substitute for knowing your dogs for generations and interacting with them every day.

Duke1965 I understand your point but comparing to colors, I,m no color gene expert but if your saying breeders will all end with sables wont the sables still be carrying the recessive for black,black and tan or what have you ? Theses are some of my observations,first perhaps its a good thing for top working kennels to keep the bloodlines seperate,because as you say once its done forget trying to go back,but saying that it seems like I,m seeing more and more nice working dogs that show both a Mixture of top WG blood blended into top Czech blood,to give you an example the Rush dog that was mentioned recently to me he seems like an excellent working stud dog and I would consider him comming from the best of both worlds, another example would be the Hoky male out of Tyson and I,m sure theres other good examples that some could mention here,it also seems to me like more Czech breeders are tapping into top West german blood in Europe than the other way around,and I,m not sure if its because the SV is better in keeping accurate detailed records than what has been in place in other countrys or if its because once your in the SV its easier to stay in the SV ? Are there many breeding kennels in the USA or Canada that are strickly staying with only either 100 percent DDR or CZECH lines ?, it would be nice to hear feedback if there are. The bottom line I guess is whats better for the breed whats better to hold onto  the best working German shepards for the future going forward,I myself have observed both weak nerves in both Czech and WG lines hopefully its the goal of both camps to improve on that.

SV doesnot recognize Czech korung so dont allow breeders to use czech dogs unless trained,titled and shown and kored in germany

for the rest every body should breed and buy as they please, I see both in my breeding and in my business, where I see and test tons of dogs that more and more people and Law Enforcement buyers are worried about the high level of prey and low level of agression in many of todays dogs

also the ability to shift is harder to find as some of these dogs are  "on" 24/7 and not being able to relax ever

The mix can bring very nice dogs  , more civil to the sport dogs, more prey to the patroldogs , but to be able make the mix you need to keep them both available

11 months full czech

yes thanks

Blitzen

Good dogs are good dogs, but someone that can read puppies and tell you what their potential will be is priceless.

Nice pup Duke

Kim

Duke. Not that German SV does not recognize Czech Korung. German SV do not recognize any other nations / country's organization's anything. Korung , x rays , show , title anything. That is unless it is judged by German judge under SV  registry rules. 

The question I have to your question is why do you ask? You want to preserve those lines by promoting them or maybe even breeding them or just want a dog from those lines and or type  for sentimental reasons or you want a good dog ? Good dogs could be found anywhere. Just like gold good dogs are where you find them But if you truly want to know the differences then they are there indeed. 

Difference of the dogs from  each country depends on the culture and perception of such country which created them. This is true since most will concur that American dogs are different then European dogs . Thus the same way there are differences between countries.  Thanks to separation of cultures and and nations and political systems due to Iron curtain the people in Communist Czechoslovakia or DDR had different needs for dogs  then people in post ww2 West Germany. Thus they produced dogs to their perception and image  of what such dog  according to their needs should be.  

 However in todays word of borders falling down and cultures intermingling in modern  breeding there are not much differences. It is like food. You can get McDonalds anywhere on the world and less and less ethnic  original ethnic food. Mexicans will tell you that  Mexican food in US has nothing much to do with true Mexican food down in Mexico....that is unless its Americanized even in Mexico. If you want to  eat true Mexican  food  then you need to go down south to restaurants catering to real Mexicans and not American tourists.  Same thing with the dogs 

If you want to see differences between production of dogs of different cultures then you need to look at breeders in those or from those cultures who remember how the dog's looked about 30-40 years ago and most importantly then you need to find among those breeders the breeders  who subscribe to such dogs. Same as if you want typical Czech food or German food or French food. If you do that then you will see definitive differences between such dogs. But then you really should look to such breeders in such countries or to breeders in this country who are from such country and know what the dogs were like and subscribe to preservation and promotion of  such type of a dog and  not to breeders who are trying to mimic such breeders but are not from that country. Those breeders are like American cooks in USA trying to produce authentic Mexican food.  Such breeders may have good dogs but if that are not from this specific country ( here in US or in Europe)  then they do not know what are or were the differences of these dogs from these different countries. Now in US there  are 3-4 American or other countries   breeders who actually visited on extensive basis - not just couple of days  or weeks, but actually lived there for prolonged periods of time and  researched dogs there in Czech and Slovakia. and they may got good idea of  what these dogs  and cultures who created them are.  But as I said there are only 2 - 3 or so I can think of. 

 West Germany If I take a stab on it I will say that old style WG dogs were mainly bred for sport . in WG the sport formed those lines rigidly based on sport and deviated from work.  SV deviated so far from work that even WG Police distanced them selves from these lines. In structure they were sleek somewhat less rugged then dogs from DDR or Czech.  They were mainly based on prey. 

DDR  breeders had different needs. It was actual work mainly guarding border along the " iron curtain"  They produced in temperament "type one" dogs which were robust and rugged and very serious protectors. For illustration purposes of the type of dog - One such dog would be  Boban von den Grauen von Monstab. Very aggressive dominant dog which generally can not be handheld by anybody in general public. Mainly based on balenace close to 50: 50 prey defense. 

 These dogs  in temperament disappeared with Iron curtain but were somewhat preserved by some breeders in the region and elsewhere  in their robust looks.  Now and then we see throw back on such dogs. But  SV then put their iron fist on the breeders in former DDR region and forced them to submit to the sport WG type directive. 

Czech and Slovak dogs. First let me say that Slovakia was in the breeding effort especially of military dogs strongly influenced by Czech lines which they basically copied or bred them under same directive from Czech.  Thus I will talk about Czech dogs.  The strongest Czech influence on world of GSD was done by z Pohranicni straze ( z Ps) ( Czechoslovakian border patrol)  under the influence of Jiri Novotny who imported  about 5 main DDR dogs from DDR military breeding programs and based the z Ps on these dogs. These dogs were then bred to Czech bitches and thousands(!!!)  of dogs were submitted to rigorous testing  of structure and temperament. These were  done to determine genotype of these dogs.   Jiri eventually retired from z Ps and with my -AlpineK9 help started JINOPO where we are  preserving these type of dogs.   In comparison tto WG lines these lines are mainly based on balenace close to 50: 50 prey defense. Oc course there are other qualitities. 

 Please keep in mind that in order to avoid genetic bottleneck many dogs from different countries are introduces  but same as DDR dogs were introduced to create z Ps dogs these dogs are introduced with what old style Czech dogs should be and has been. This is done with what Jiri and I believe these dogs were and should be. 
 Some are asking if  our dogs today are better or lesser then dogs from 1980 s. Id say without hesitation that they are better. Many hips and elbow and other problems were diminished and while preserving these balanced working dogs. Some strains of  these dogs were modified for general public where some really super tough dogs are still produced and / or are easily recreated. 

 Here a word of caution. People who are asking for old style tough Czech dogs usually do not know what they are saying or asking for.  Just about 99% of general public can not handle such dogs. That includes many LE  handlers. These are "type one" dogs which we like to keep in our lines in order to preserve hardness of working lines but they are not suitable for general public. These dogs like Gero z Ps or Chuligan and some other which we use today are not what you want. when you want a family protection dogs.  

 The gentler "old style Czech dogs" are suitable for LE or family and are  comparably easier to handle and keep while preserving their original ruggedness in heath and looks and having better heath ( hips & elbows) and better trainability and ability to work.  True Czech ballanced working dogs we are so proud of. 

Now this may give you good idea of what you are dealing with when you are talking WG- DDR or Czech lines . I am from Czech and I have lived in WG for quite a while and visited DDR on many occasions for prolenged periods of time. So you have here personal opinion of someone who,lived, bred , trained these dogs   and imported first Czech dogs into USA and elsewhere and helped preserve Old Style Czech dogs.  

 For what ever that is worth. 

 Prager Hans

there are sme SV recognized judges in austria, switzerland and holland if I am correct , titles/results inthose countries and under those judges are SV recognized