Pike and Livers! - Page 6

What is it that you know that I (who have linebred on Pike, purchased a linebred Pike dog and visited Holland where several linebred Pike dogs worked before my eyes) dont know? 

Liver is a dilution of black and it has more than one way to get there from a genetic standpoint.  Color genetics do not necessarily follow a dominant or recessive pattern as they can be multiple allele and/or incomplete penetrance.  I have see some pretty red and chocolate looking black puppies grow up to be very black indeed and anyone with Czech dogs knows how red they can get when the sun bleaches out the black under the summer sun.  I don't think Pike has any more to do with liver colored dogs than any other stud who shows up in a lot of pedigrees .. the dilution trait was there before Pike came along and Pike happens to show up in a lot of pedigrees of dogs that people care to study and breed on.

TP WLGSD, it is whispered that breeding too closely or heavily on Pike Shafbachmühle brings with it pancreatic enzyme insufficiency, vulnerability to the development of SIBO [small intestine bacterial overgrowth] or other related digestive system abnormalities.

Is there hard-copy documentation of this? Not that I'm aware of, but it wouldn't be for lack of anyone making an effort to do so...an attempt to create a database of known producers of EPI and related conditions was made back in 2012, by someone who knew the heartbreak of losing a dog to EPI that wasn't sufficiently responsive to management to permit the dog to maintain a healthy body weight and live a normal life; as one would expect, she was met with a lot of private contacts from people with affected dogs, but as far as I can tell few were willing to go on record with the names and pedigrees of their dogs, for fear of being black-balled or at least publicly excoriated for having spoken up about the condition, especially in the working-line GSDs. 

Your mileage, of course, may vary. Generally speaking, however, most of us have learned a long time ago that when there are whispers in the dog world about one dog or line producing an inordinate number of offspring affected with a trait, there's usually some kernal of truth to the matter--but at the same time, much of those traits can be avoided or worked around if breedings are done intelligently and linebreeding on a particular dog or line is managed carefully. [In this discussion, the term 'dog' is used in reference to an animal of either gender, and is not exclusively meant to point toward stud dogs alone.]

So perhaps this is what RealDealGSD is inferring, or some thing similar.

bubba, there's a vast difference between dark-coated dogs whose coats 'sunburn' to liver or rust colors, and dogs that are truly livers.  A true liver will have liver pigmentation of the nose, eyelids, flews and pawpads, just as a blue has slate-blue pigmentation of those areas.  It is the reason why the breed standard calls for the nose to be black--because the dilute colors don't have black points.

The expression of genetic traits is not determined at conception .. it is lifelong from conception to death of the individual.  The old recessive gene explanation for liver color in the GSD is most surely incorrect and incomplete.  The evidence would suggest that color expression in dogs and humans is much more complicated and may be subject to epigenetic and other environmental factors as yet not understood.  The explanation for liver coloration being based on a recessive trait linked to one gene is surely wrong as it is probably multiple allele and/or incomplete penetrance.  The liver color is observed when the black pigment is absent or reduced and there are some individuals and some lines with diminished black pigment.  This is most easily observed in GSD blacks which is where my experience comes from as color variation and bleaching in other colors is difficult to differentiate from color or color pattern variations.  I have seen some blacks born red, brown, or liver ( including nose and paws ) that later darkened and were very black indeed by 6 months.  Liver happens in the absence of black pigment and there are doubtless many ways for the GSD to lose black pigment density and it is not a simple recessive trait.  The fact that liver coloration is more common in inbreds also suggests multiple allele or epigenetic control just as much as a recessive trait.  There may also be linkage or block inheritance in play with the black color and alleles involved in liver coloration.  The absence of black does not have to produce liver coloration .. it all depends on the other pigments present in the dog's hair and the colors of light they reflect once black is removed or diminished.  

In my 35+ yrs I have seen a couple litters linebred on Pike. Some produced livers and some didn't. I have seen some puppies that appeared normal black and tan with black leather. However when these pups were put in the sun, the black had a dark red tint. These pups had never been out in the sun so sun bleaching could not be the reason for it.  

I am not posting this to debate it, or argue or to say what others post is wrong. I am only shariing my experience and what I know.   

A sun bleached dog and a dog that is wormy will have a liver tone to them. That does not make them LIVERS. 

im sorry I do not feel it is coincidence that every liver I have seen that has working lines in them have pike in them. As far as Going to Holland and not seeing these colors or hearing of them, of course you won't! They have a strict color standard. Pups that are born out of that standard are culled at birth and are not spoke of simply because of the fact that it is not accepted and it would really lower the "face value" and breeding quality of the dog that the dog has. The "whispered" issues of a dog are exactly that WHISPERED. They never have hard proof because it is never spoken of.  But when it continuously pops up it take little common sense to see it. But takes a honest person to admit it. I love Pike. I had a great granddaughter of his and I bred her she produced very nice civil dogs BUT I never linebred on Pike and never will. I know the chances are there and I will not take it. I know someone that just did a 5-5,4 on Pike and altho the pups are not liver you can see in all the pups a brownish tent to the black and even sables. Noses are black. These are young pups so I would hate to think that they are sun bleached and that they are wormy ( they do not appear to be wormy ). Altho the facts are not written in stone when it appears over and over you can't help but believe that that's what it is. It's the same as saying a dog produces bad hips! There is nothing written in stone but when HD pops up from a dog multiple times it is "whispered" that the dog is known to produce it. 

No no need to get defensive and brag about this and that. Do research study the livers with working lines and see pike always pops up. And just because one dog out of him or linebred on him doesn't show the trait does not mean won't produce it. Just my opinion or should I say whisper. 

Hutchins, the point is simple:  liver GSDs will NOT have black noses, eye rims, flews, nails and pawpads. Period. If all of these points on a given dog are black, the dog is NOT genetically a liver, regardless of whether the dog's coat appear to be liver in color.  Aside from sun-damage to the coat, the latter dog could be lacking in, or have an excess of, one or more vitamins or minerals, it could have a metabolic disorder that affects the storage or dispersal of an element or enzyme--but genetically, that black-nosed 'reddish' coated dog will NOT be a liver GSD. 

My Aberdeen-Angus calves, born black as coal, will turn liver-coated over the course of a summer, but once they lose their calf-hair [which is akin to puppy fur], they will never again appear reddish-coated, even as adults.  The same goes for black and black pattern-coated GSD puppies--it should not surprise anyone when the puppy-fuzz on a dark-coated GSD looks red-tinged in the sun, since it's dead and dying hair that has lost its pigment as the individual hair died off. If the pup is on a good quality food and is being adequately nourished by a balanced diet, and is maintained in top condition health-wise, that dead coat will be replaced with hair that is sleek, shiny, supple and black in the places it's meant to be black.

No one said that the reddish coated dog with the black nose was a liver. A dog that carries the gene can very well exhibit that reddish tint to them just as a dog with the white gene exhibits the genet hence the black silvers and some black and creams. NOW that's not saying that ALL blk creams/silvers carry the white gene just as not all blk reds with the reddish tint carry liver......