For Those Who Test For DM, What Age? - Page 21

Giving results in terms of if they have a mutation of SOD1 is better than saying a dog is Clear, Carrier, or at risk of DM. Once again I would like to remind that Dr Clemmons thought that the change in SOD1 was probably nothing more than a common mutation. My sentiments are the same as what gsd student gave on page two; If we buy a product which does not work, what is the incentive to the company to refine or stop producing a faulty test? 

Clemmons wasn't right about everything either. Don't test if you don't want to, Marko, but what excuse do you have for not submitting your dogs' DNA to the CHIC database? Or have you done that?

If the SV says that the current DM test must be part of the pre-breeding evaluation (like hip and elbow xrays, a title and so forth) what will those who conform to the SV's breeding rules do then?

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/dnabank.html

Do something positive for the breed instead of complaining all the time about what is wrong with this test and that test and why you don't use them. How much effort does it take to collect DNA with a cheek swab and what's the downside?

VTGSD, you siad

---->  We would need to create a database filled with factual evidence only, and then and only then once we have a significatnt database of factual evidence with signature and letters from veterinarians and their clinics confirming diagnosis that can be presented in a professional manner they may listen. Sad that it takes this.<------

I have built a database for this test! It is housed on the German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry http://www.gsdbbr.org It would be nice if people used it!!!!

I also have a facebook page to try to gather the information. It is called The OFA DM DNA TEST for German Shepherds:Fact or Fiction...https://www.facebook.com/OFADMDNATESTGSD

and I have a facebook page for those who used Dr Clemmons DM Flash Test https://www.facebook.com/pages/DR-Clemmons-DM-Flash-Test-in-German-Shepherds-Results/1446771572288897

 

 

I cannot even readcompletely through this thread..... You all know how I feel about the OFA DM DNA Test for GSDS! ITS A CROCK!!!! I have posted, over and over again, through the years, WHY it is a crock- FACTS to PROVE it is a crock, and I will do this one LAST time and never again.... Before I post the facts, as to WHY ALS is NOT DM, in GSDS. 

 I will tell you that I had a conversation with Dr Keller, from the OFA, and gave him the facts of life. Originally, there was NO reference to DM in certain breeds being caused by other factors than Dr Coate SOD1 gene theory , despite the FACT that only10% of people with ALS have a change to their SOD1 gene, that 80-90% of ALS cases are NOT familial, and sending people to him and to DrCoates whose dogs had tested clear and carrier, who were found to have DM upoon necropsy, some by Dr Coates, herself!!! I also had people notify him of pups whose sire and dam tested clear, but puppies tested At Risk, even though progeny of clear testing parents are given an automatic clear. RIDICUOLUS! (This test hasnt even been around for ONE generation!!!) I informed Dr Keller that I was going to file a lawsuit against the OFA for fraudulent representation, if a disclaimer was not added to the OFA DM DNA Test, as he had already been presented with evidence of the test being wrong, multiple times! The legal definition of fraudulent representation, is not just claiming something is true, if it is false and knowing it is false, but claiming something is true when you know it could POSSIBLY be false. With the evidence provided to him, he knew very well that the test was faulty! Therefore, in the AT RISK section of the explanation of test results, he added " recent evidence suggest that there are other causes of DM in some breeds." Now, they didnt highlight it- I DID! They BURIED it in the AT RISK section! LOLOLOL! Why did they have to add this sentence? 

1) because they had evidence provong the test was faulty

2) the facts, which I will post, below, for the last time. I have posted it and posted it till I am blue in the face.  I guess people will need to get blindsided when the next few generations prove this test to be what it is, for OUR BREED, the GSD, which has been thrown under the bus, all for the God Almighty $$$$$$$$$$$, nothing short of complete and total bullshit!! IT PISSES ME OFF! This test has stopped DM research, for our breed. It has come to a screeching halt.

 

WHY GSDM is NOT ALS! WHY the OFA DM DNA TEST is NOT valid for the GSD!

Diagnostic test results prove that German Shepherd Dog Myelopathy (GSDM) is different than the Degenerative Myelopathy of other breeds. Here, in lay person's language, is the different results shown in diagnostic tests between the Degenerative Myelopathy of German Shepherds, compared to Degenerative Myelopathy in Boxers and Corgis. Clearly, these are two very different diseases!

DM Corgis, Boxers, : motor unit disease

DM GSD: Auto-immune disease

 

DM Corgis, Boxers : Protein is normal in the AO CSF

DM GSD: Protein is normal in the AO CSF but Protein is elevated in the Lumbar CSF. CSF changes in DM occur in the lumbar CSF and if there are changes in the AO sample, there is something other than DM.

 

DM Corgis, Boxers: Oligoclonal bands of IgG are uncommon

DM GSDS: Oligoclonal bands of IgG are common in MS

 

DM Corgis, Boxers: affects cell bodies of neurons

DM GSDS: Does not affect cell bodies of neurons

 

DM Corgis. Boxers: muscle spams

DM GSDS: no muscle spasms

 

DM Corgis, Boxers:EMG is affected early in the disease

DM GSDS: EMG is normal

 

All breeds can get a degenerative condition of the spine, which is both chronic and progressive, called Degenerative Myelopathy. However, the Degenerative Myelopathy of other breeds is not the same disease German Shepherd Degenerative Myelopathy. German Shepherd Dog Myelopathy (GSDM) is unique.

DR Coates has worked under the theory that DM is ALS. Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis and related diseases are motor unit diseases where the nerve cells in the body responsible for controlling movement die off leaving the patient weak and with varying degrees of Lower Motor Neuron dysfunction (loss of reflexes and flaccidity) or Upper Motor Neuron dysfunction (hyperactive reflexes and spasticity). Those causing LMN disease affect the EMG early in the course of the disease. Those causing UMN disease result is selective shrinkage of the motor cortex visible on MRI. Neither of these conditions exist in GSDM.

Immune diseases like MS attack varying parts of the nervous system and one of them, Primary Progressive MS, specifically targets the myelin and axons of the spinal cord leading to UMN signs but without affecting the cell bodies of the neurons (which is what is seen in GSDM on histopathology). The CSF protein is usually normal in ALS, but abnormal in MS. Oligoclonal bands of IgG are common in MS and uncommon in ALS. The recessive forms of ALS are extremely slow in development and do not result in shortened life-span. Even the one motor unit disease known in dogs, Spinal Muscle Atrophy in Brittany Spaniels occurs in young dogs with progressive EMG changes leading to death. That might be more consistent with the “early onset DM reported in the GSD which is not the same disease as GSDM on histopathology.

ALS diseases cause motor problems but not sensory ones. That is they do not cause CP deficits or hypermetria (ataxia in which movements overreach the intended goal.). People do not knuckle and scrap their toes when they walk, they only show weakness. Most of them are painful because of muscle spasms. (Does that sound like GSDM?....NO!)

So, even if there is a genetic change in SOD1, Dr Clemmons believes that a change must also be explainable based upon the clinical signs. If not, it may just be a CASUAL relationship not a CAUSAL one! There is a world of difference between the two!!! GSDM as a pure motor unit disease just does not fit all of the available data. (Not just DR Clemmons…everyone's!)

"ALS does not affect a person's ability to see, smell, taste, hear, or RECOGONIZE TOUCH."

You can pinch the foot of a dog with DM, and they wont feel it, so how can this be reconciled with ALS not affecting the ability to recogonize touch?

" ALS Patients usually maintain control of eye muscles and bladder and bowel functions, although in the late stages of the disease most patients will need help getting to and from the bathroom.""

In DM, when the hind end goes, so goes bladder and bowel and bowel control...ask anyone who has had a DM dog if that dog has been able to maintain bladder and bowel control. The answer is "NO!" Again, how can this be reconciled with ALS, when DM dogs lose control of bladder and bowel?

" Not all familial ALS cases are due to the SOD1 mutation, therefore other unidentified genetic causes clearly exist."

unidentified genetic causes --- >Exactly what Dr C has been saying for years...

Only 5-10% of ALS is familial- only 5-10% of people with ALS have a change to their SOD1 gene. Again, is this a CASUAL change or a CAUSAL change? The truth is, no one knows!

"The parts of the body affected by early symptoms of ALS depend on which muscles in the body are damaged first. In some cases, symptoms initially affect one of the legs, and patients experience awkwardness when walking or running or they notice that they are tripping or stumbling more often. Some patients first see 
the effects of the disease on a hand or arm as they experience difficulty with simple tasks requiring manual dexterity such as buttoning a shirt, writing, or turning a key in a lock. Other patients notice speech problems-slurred and nasal speech; or difficulty chewing or swallowing."

Interesting- DM always progresses from the rear, moving towards the front of the body. I have never heard of a dog with DM having problems with its front end, front legs, or chewing and swallowing, before it is already down in the rear.

I would be curious to know if anyone knows of a dog definitively dx with DM that was not first affected by the disease in the hind end...2+2 has to=4..... This is more than puzzling, to me. Doesnt this puzzle anyone else?

 

A test is not better than nothing, if it is testing for the wrong thing!

Blitzen, I have been collecting data on the DM Flash Test done years and years ago... I have yet to find ONE wrong test result, thus far... Maybe as I gather more data, but thus far, its accurate. Of course, dr Clemmons always said ithad the same efficacy as all the more invasive rule in tests. His research proved that to be correct....so far, dogs that tested negative, who went on to develop hind end problems, were dx with cauda equaina, IVD, and their symptoms were not consistent with DM.

Markobytes, their is a world of difference between a CASUAL relationship and a CAUSAL one, as you seem to understand. Wish others could comprehend that!!! ...The statistics just dont bear out , at only 10%, that it is causal! NO WAY!

Lastly, to those who dont think DM is as awful as a disease that takes a dog quickly, from someone who has been there/done that twice, I can only tell you that if you actually LIVE through the DM experience, not once, but twice, those  words would never come out of your mouth again... While the dogs feel no pain, it is devastating to a family and the people that LOVE that dog, watching it deteriorate, little by little, bit by bit, every day... The eyes looking back at you, when the body no longer cooperates, are still full of intelligence, and they will still stuggle to protect you and be all they always were...I guess everyone has their own poison. I have had GSDS since 1967, and they have died from bloat, cancer,  you name it.. DM, to be, was a walk through hell.... a living nightmare...It is my poison..

     Marjorie, you don't have to read through these posts, no one who pushes this test has attempted to explain the problems other than say email Dr Coates, which to me is probably equivalent to beating your head against a wall, the best solution they can offer is for everyone to use this test and wait for the results to be so bad they can't be ignored. One thing you can be assured of is that some of us have not been hoodwinked and are not going to let any post promoting this test to go unchallenged. 

   Thank You Marjorie for doing something that actually addresses the problem.