Who Owns or Has owned a WL X SL Cross .. facts not opinions - Page 5

Depends on the linebreeding behind each parent and if the breeder has goals to breed back to a WL or SL. I would look at the whole pedigree 5, 6, 7 generations and not just the resulting offspring.

I am well aware of the British and Italian dogs but neither tag tells you about the individual dog or bloodline.  British and Italian are geographic not biological .. working and show line are political not biological.  While breed registries may differentiate British or Italian there is no differentiation by breed registry for working and show line.  One of my working x showline dogs is Ivana vom Mystical Haus and she has some Italian showline ancestors.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=654626-ivana-vom-mystical-haus

Ivana is a very large, strong and fast female .. the fastest  .. her 1st litter is 8 months old to the day in the video.  Huge puppies at 8 months.

Ivana is an excellent mother ( never lost a pup .. raised them all ) and she is easy to work with (for me).  Ivana likes me and nearly nobody else.  Ivana is not an easy dog to live with ( very busy and fidgety ) but that comes from her sire Hessel from ODonnells who was a crazy SOB IPO dog.  I had another female bred on Hessel and I gave her away as she was much worse than Ivana .. she was straight working line .. the crazy all came from Hessell.  Hessells pups had extreme drives but they were not dogs who could quiet down .. a lot of drama from Hessell puppies.  Ivana's puppies bred back to a large, strong and level headed male were very driven and high energy but improved versus their mother who is an excellent dog for competition sports .. very sweet and could be a house dog but she is perhaps too physical and large for small children.  Ivana is a dominant female and she does not play well with other adult females.

Ivana's puppies pedigree with a working line type male so 1/4 showline

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2136975-warbonnet-erny

@Susie....he difference is one breeding has extreme BACKMASSING on one side of the pedigree and the other does not. The result of the extreme BACKMASSING is a type of dog that is not typically as athletic or as strong working wise. Note, I said typically, so of course there are exceptions. 

I don´t understand that.
"Backmassing" used in the term of common ancestors 5+ generations back will be bigger statistically within pure WL/WL or pure SL/SL crosses.
Logically they have to be less athletic or less strong ?!? No matter which line.
Backmassing is a kind of "linebreeding light" ( the linebreeding took part earlier ), it´s selection.
Very simplified said:
Good selection = good dogs
Bad selection   = bad dogs.
Given that up to the early seventies breeders tended to use working- AND showlines, there should be several common ancestors, on the dams side and on the sire´s side.
Both kind of breeders tend to linebreed on "famous" dogs.

In my embeded videos if you click on the word VIMEO while the video is playing you will be taken to the VIMEO site and see the original video in HD video.

When humans for reasons not completely understood started breeding for a set of qualities in the GSD known as show line or working line the changes were not great but over time the split has widened .. I see no biological reason that breeding show line and working line together will not improve the GSD in the longer term such as 3-4 generation later.  The split happened but it is not permanent.

This dog has 50,433 descendants in 3 generations .. V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land.. she was the female dog that changed the direction of the GSD toward the show line rapidly.  Was she that great a dog or was she what the GSD "market" was looking for at the time.  Sometimes it is impossible to say if biology ( ie outstanding dogs) or politics and business caused the success of a certain dog, kennel, bloodline, etc.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=116-palme-vom-wildsteiger-land

Bubba,

I totally agree with your last post, especially the part about it taking a few generations and selective breeding AFTER the "cross" is done. This part is often forgotten and understated. This is not a quick results strategy. That is why, IMO, there are so many people who think it is a futile endeavor. In my opinion it is a long time endeavor over many generations, and it HAS DEFINITELY been proven successful in many pedigrees in history.

theresa

My WGSL/WL cross with his father.

Baby Legend

So handsome:-)

In my place people do crosses all the time, I have been taking notes on results since maybe 10 years, notes on 1st generation, 2nd and 3rd,

Most people in the breed want a dog that will guard home and property based on instinct, with little or no training for that at all.

Just to give an idea about training and dogs here, we have a group for obedience and bite work training, we have few good instructors, not perfectly professional but good enough, we gather once in a week and work our dogs on sleeve bite. So I know how good each dog that comes there, and dogs who do not come for training, I see them at their homes and gather info from their owners. 

1, 1st generation, imported GSDs, show and work.

Work: they are much better at bite work, most start biting without much effort, but one can see they are enjoying it like a baby enjoys a game, they realize it is a game or sort of a sport, not a serious thing.

At home most of them do not guard owner's home or property, most of their protection would be against other animals, cats or dogs, they would bark at those animals not human. Some would bark against younger humans, but once an adult outsider enters from garden gate they would stop barking and they are no danger.

Most dog owners have a fenced small yard for their dog with a home, during the day dog is locked inside the fenced yard and at night gate of yard is opened and dog has access to all land surrounding home. Dog attitude while locked in the yard is stronger against outsiders than when unlocked.

Most dogs have very good level of energy, run and play most of the day. More aware of surrounding, and more aware and watcheful what humans do. But not wary, only watch with no suspicion.

Most are friendly with strangers and ready to interact and play when invited. Most have good reaction to sounds and movement, they show interest to know where sound came from, if they were lying down the would get up, when they see a moving thing they get aroused.