Who Owns or Has owned a WL X SL Cross .. facts not opinions - Page 6

Show: Most are not very interested in bite, you feel they do it because you want them to, it takes more time to have them do it, some will then do it properly with some interest but without much strength, some will then enjoy doing it. and some will do it and let you know they think it is stupid, very few will get better on it by time, enjoy it and bite with strength.

At home some are lazy, nothing arouses them, not sound and not movement, they rarely run and play by themself, not interested in strangers nor intruders, it is not their concern and not their job, if the stranger is not welcome let owner deal with him.

Some are more energetic, play and run, and will welcome strangers with over friendly attitude. Some are wary and suspicious but will cheer up when stranger shows friendliness towards them, some will panic and remain hesitant. 

By the way, in above two posts I am talking about good specimens imported from outside, whether show or work, I excluded those individuals with temperament obvious faults like fear.

2. Second generation, crosses

When breeding show x show, most got same results or worse than parents, same applies to work x work. But when crossing show x work some got better results than parents especially when the mother was the work type.

Best results:

Breeding a work female with no fear, very good interest in bite, strong bite, friendly attitude, good level of energy (not very high). Breed this sort of female to a show male that has no fear and the wary and suspicious type that lightens up to friendly humans. This sort of breeding produced best guard dogs here, without training for guarding, just out of instinct, those best guards, some of them are very good at bite and some of them do not have much interest in it, but they guard their owner's property seriously and know it is their duty.

Average offspring has good nerves, no fear, no crazy energy, clear head and fit in a Jordanian home without any problem and some showed protective instinct of their human family especially kids.

3rd generation:

Choosing very good specimens from 2nd generation, a male and a female who are crosses themselves and breeding them gave following result:

In general very good nerves, no fear, very good drives, very good bite interest, strong bite, good energy level, good number of puppies who became excellent guards. 

Choosing very good specimen from 2nd generation and breeding back to a show:

In general, good results but some have fear or less self assured, others little less "good as above in blue".

Choosing very good specimen from 2nd generation and breeding back to work gave following results:

In general, very good nerves, no fear, very good drives, very good bite interest and strong bite, good energy level, but less number of puppies who became excellent guards and some with extra energy who do not calm down.

Those results are real, I made charts with notes and above is the summarry of the best results when best specimens we have here were bred together. Ofcourse there were wrong breedings done with very bad results. I know reporting our experience might not be what the thread is about exactly, that is achievements IPO etc of work show crosses, but I thought it could be useful to some. 

I think breeding a good show to a good work brings a better all round GSD in regards to instincts, especially protection/guard instinct when done properly using two good dogs, some things are missing in each type and both types compliment each other. A professional breeder can get good resuts both in structure and temperament when combining both in his/her program, good temperament is not limited to interest and strength of sleeve biting. Thanks

Ibrahim

@ Ibrahim, and Sheesh....I agree that you can do a SL x WL mix and if you make good discriminate decisions in next 3-5 generations and cull some of the others from breeding stock, you can go in right direction. Unfortunately, the problem is most breeders either don't know what to do next, or revert back to their likes after making the initial mix and compromise the process. Ibrahim, in your example, I would think that the results you cite are typical, but once I get the first generation dogs that show lack of energy or drives, I would not breed them again in order to improve structure and between the ears. Sheesh, with the genetic condition of the lines today, I would start with a WL female and SL male to increase chances that all pups have good foundation in temperament from beginning as it has been showed in Ibrahim's informal observations. Anything created can be undone, certainly, but it takes the same zeal in breeding consistently against the principle that have gotten you in the dilemma you are trying to improve...I would think It takes strong impartiality to " likes" of things like Color or extreme drives to get back to the balanced versatile dog that created this great legacy. Most breeders today are breeding for a sport or show.....this will NOT bring the mindset about for the long term approach.....thus neither side has changed much in past thirty years,imo. Can it be done? Sure, anything done can be undone,imo.

sorry what is the goal here again?

to make better working dogs by crossing them to showlines then breeding the best of them (after rigorous testing no less) to pure SL or WL to do what exactly??

or is this project to make better SL dogs to...???

so confused and what you end up with apparently is a bunch of data equivalent to white noise that you can cherry-pick from to prove what again?

or is this just a thread for people to excercise their crreative writing skills of how the best personal dogs they ever had were SL X WL while not once ever supplying anything more than personal anecdotes in written form.

Don't know about anyone else, but if you ask me what I would like

to see result from this practise, it is that the Showlines should get

back that which is reckoned  to be missing:  i.e. improve their

OVERALL, rather than individual dog,  drive and trainability, to lose

some of the soft pet edge, and the poor nerve, shown by some -

NOT ALL - specimens;

and that the Work line dogs should retain their "Shepherdness" and

with that their breed type, their construction, and identifiability i.e.

WITHOUT losing the erect ears, good water-resistant coat, full

dentition, character, discrimination, kindness, adaptability, and anything

else that might be creeping in while handlers concentrate on 'grip' rather

than 'looks'.

Ibrahim, those Jordanian results (and the fact that such careful records

are held) are extremely interesting.  Keep up the good work !

Ibrahim, some interesting observations, thanks for sharing.

@vk, at the risk of jamming some up and I really don't want to do that as every situation is different, I will say that most, not all, s/l female to w/l male that I have seen is to correct some character flaw in the female. Advoidance, weak nerves etc. To a lesser degree, I have seen to add color as it was not a high priority in ASL for quite a few years.

Again, not directed at breeders who have specific goals and prove their dogs. just a general observation.

Thank you ILMD,

VK,

I will assume your questions are serious and I will try to answer to my best.

All friends, VK included , just kidding VK

Dog world in my country is much different than in the WEST. We are a population of 6 million only, pure bred dogs with pedigrees are limited, all imported from Europe. We have no professional breeders with ethics and true breeding program and good pure bred stock. Available breeders are kids who are looking for a quick buck, they can not afford importing good stock from abroad, they would breed anything to anything and puppy price starts from $ 40, imagine !!!

People do not think high of dog breeders, they do not think dog traders are respectful individuals. I am not happy saying that but this is the reality here, ofcourse there are exceptions but this is the general thinking here.

Our community is one that historically used dogs for herding and protection. Here are main uses of dogs by people in order:

1. Guarding/protection

2. Herding

3. Companions/pets (usually small breeds).

Civil defense and police works

We have few sport enthusiasts and show enthusiasts. When I say few out of the 6 million I mean a couple hundred. But most people do not know pedigrees and lines. We have no show rings, we have no breed clubs, we have no authority to title IPO etc. Most people are interested in a nice looking dog that will guard home, property or farm. Most people do not know conformation, angles etc.

My society thinks a good dog is a good looking one, good size, not fearful and guards. Also easy to handle and control. 

The breedings I spoke about previously are done by dog owners, sometimes with a friend advice about good partner, they are not a breeding program with much study and thought, purpose is to get puppies that fulfill above criteria of a good useful dog.

Through my personal observations, I noticed both pure work and pure show GSD lack in protective instinct, breedings involving show and work sometimes produced all round offspring with stronger protective instinct that are easy to live with and handle by ordinary Jordanian. To me those observations are facts I saw with my own eyes here. My observations are limited to the GSDs we have here, no more no less.

Thank you Hundmutter, good post as usual Gustav