Please show me your straight backed GSL stacked and in motion!! - Page 7

Western Rider, I posted those dogs with extreme backs to counter what another poster said about the dogs with straight backs tending to have short, steep croups, and that the roach back tends to disappear when the dog is positioned foursquare. I HAD to say something, as this is a sore point with me, things I often hear from show line people, and which I don't think are true. Then you asked me not to turn this into a bash fest, so I posted some show lines with nice backs. THAT'S why!

Smiley, I did not say I liked the amount of angulation these V and VA dogs have, just that they had nice toplines. I personally also prefer a dog with less angulation.

Okay, back on track here: Jyl, Aiko was one heck of a nice looking dog! :D

Sunsilver You missed my point Doesn't matter Smiley is no longer interested in this thread that she started asking for help.

Think it time to let it die or lock it and some one can start a thread on a new topic perhaps in the direction that this one seems to have gone

I'm, apparently, the only one who sees dogs today that are very segregated into specific types.

Smiley, in case you are still reading here, no, you are NOT the only one. The German shepherd has become what it is today due to people breeding for those specific types. The show people favour a pretty black and red dog that shows well trotting around the ring, and the working people want a prey monster that goes crazy for the sleeve. The GSD that has moderate structure and can 'do it all' is no longer easy to find.

One of the best posts I've seen on here in recent years came from Gustav in the thread about Wyn Strickland:

Blitzen, I do not seek out breeders that breed FOR Police dogs anymore than I would seek out breeders that breed FOR show dogs or sport dogs. I seek out breeders that breed for the complete dog according to standard. A good breeder will have dogs in a large litter capable of LE work, as well as pups in litter that make good strong family dogs. I will not seek or recommend a breeder that I know by genetics is breeding stock that is incapable of LE work or incapable of family or other utility work. If you understand the standard, show and sport are nowhere mentioned in the document....so why are so many people breeding dogs TO DO these two venues. It's faulty logic and direction for the breed and has had devastating effects. Byb are not the enemy to this breed, it's show and sport breeders. Why? Because byb don't have the national and international influence to propagate their breeding goals( like show and sport). Two, the show and sport people just as often use breeding stock that is inferior but it's clothed in titles and certs that legitimizes the breeding. Do you know how often I have seen show males and females that are no where close to having the temperament to produce anything but other show dogs be bred because they have championship or health clearances...or sport dogs that have so many lacking physical or structural deficiencies that they should never be bred, but they can produce more sport dogs. And these are elite breeders to the uninformed and semi-informed who fashion themselves as knowledgable. Now this doesn't mean there aren't some sport/show breeders breeding for total dog, but they are few and far between. So I seek out breeders that breed for correct structure, good health, and standard temperament....which identifies the GS as a guard dog type of dog/ LE type dog among many other characteristics that also make it an ideal family and utility dog. These breeders will have some pups in a litter that can do LE work( which is what I seek), some will be obedience dogs, some rally dogs, some, SAR dogs and some family dogs. A good litter will have dogs that except for the LE work which requires a little stronger character and maybe drive, have all of the pups capable of doing the other things I mentioned if trained for them( thus utility dog), and also good family dogs. That is what breeders should breed for,imo, to maintain this great breed. Now if a specific pup in a litter is exception in sport qualities, or conformation than if the right home they should be shown or competed with by all means. But to breed TO show or TO do sport leads to where we are today with a lack of balance in both camps.

So, yes, there are people out there who don't like that the GSD has become separated into two (or more) distinct camps, and would like to see a return to the dogs that are more moderate in structure, and not so specialized. (I am one of them.) Unfortunately, the chances of that happening are very slim. But there ARE still breeders out there who are trying to breed for the 'total dog', and put health, sound structure and temperament ahead of winning ribbons or trophies.

I wish you luck finding what you seek. Sorry we couldn't be of more help.

never heard of the "UNDERGROUND german showline group".

Are looking for a dog with WL conformation, black/tan saddle, and a threshold for arousal that is higher than in some of the easily triggered sports dogs that have trouble capping drive? B/t saddle is disappearing from the WLs, it seems, b/c people don't breed for color, and the few b/t saddles still in WL seem to get bred to other colors. But you will know that there are plenty of WL dogs that don't have trouble capping drive, Smiley. So is it the black/tan saddle you may be looking for? I confess, I am sentimentally attached to it, as I grew up with black/tan saddles before the SL/WL split, long ago. 

There are still some, von Empire Zwinger in NH sometimes produces black/tan WL, not that he breeds for color but they do show up. I have liked all of his dogs that I've met, temperamentally sound, WGWL on the smaller and very agile side. This boy is horribly stacked, forced to look like a SL but the stack clearly and thankfully doesn't work: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=754822-guinness-vom-empire-zwinger
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/search.html?q=vom+Empire+Zwinger&index_in=All&results_in=15&dog_breed=german_shepherd_dog

Couple of dogs that have been discussed on other GSD forums:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=653423-deestraumandakas-jagged-edge
This dog here is said to be temperamentally sound, a cross of ASL and WL. I've seen a couple of pix of him in a 4 point stand as opposed to the overstretched show stance here, and I liked what I saw. But not IPO titled. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=581992-trex-vom-kriegerhaus
and one of his offspring, dam a Bullinger SL bitch: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1825252-guardyans-kamikaze

And, I, too, see many dogs of the 'old' conformation, with black/tan saddle, and good temperament at least as family companions. They are typically produced by pet dog breeders, many of them BYB. These dogs descend from breedings that did not have an agenda of 'improving' the type of dog that was imported to the US before the SL/WL split. It is likely the majority of GSDs in the US, but I have no data to support this. I don't remember seeing any at sports events, it's a different scene of owners. Sadly, few are HD/ED screened, so it's more of a crapshot what you get. These dogs are not titled and there is no way of knowing how they would do on sheep or in IPO. How do I know? I am active in breed rescue. We get all types of GSDs, WLs, WGSLs, ASLs, and pet dogs (I doubt there are 'lines'), rarely the extreme specialty ASL simply b/c I think there are very few of the extreme dogs to begin with, very few people want them.

But if you used one of these dogs (HD/ED checked, health tested) as a stud to a WL bitch, who would buy the puppies? No sports people, they buy from WL kennels only. No show people, they buy puppies from SL kennels. You'd get pet buyers, nothing wrong with that, but there is an overproduction of GSDs of this type, sadly. My own dog is a cross of DDR, WGWL, old style WGSL, ASL, pet, and the breeder couldn't sell all of the puppies either. 50% top working lines. Went to breed rescue. Has shown great working ability, looks like any WL GSD.

And a still gangly pup from a cross betwen a WL dam and a SL sire with moderate conformation, V rated, UKC CH, and titled in many sports incl. IPO:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2221844-general-patton-vom-winter-storm

Still see a strong representation of your basic B/T saddle-backed WL GSDs coming out of the Netherlands, such as Mahler-Meister...

But the reason we're losing so much of the B/T is probably because the majority of the 'podium dogs' in recent years have been sables, and there's been a definite surge in the number of blacks in the WL as well--because a significant market has developed for the blacks...so much so that between people wanting those 'black sables' and now solid blacks, there clearly IS some degree of breeding for color in the WLs these days, too.

I sometimes wonder whether b/t saddle pattern has now become associated with the WGSL and WL breeders shy away from it. Like WL are sable, bi-color, and black, whereas WGSL are b/t saddle only. Different conformation, more or less difference in temperament, and separated by color s well. Conformation and temperament matter, but color?
As I understand it, genetically agouti sable dominates all other colors, b/t dominates bicolor and black, and bicolor dominates black, and for a GSD to be black, s/he has to be homzygous for the black recessive gene. So the disappearance of b/t saddle in WLs isn't random. Color preferences, as Hexe said.