IPO prospect? - Page 3

It seems that my comments are touching a nerve with you for some reason..

Who said anything about breeding to the big winners?

Anyways, I have heard the same tired excuses over and over. Lets quit wasting each others time, I think we both know whats what.. ;).

Haven't touched a nerve with me, personally, however, I remember some over-zealous, under-experienced folks in their mid to late 20's saying similar things about very good friends of mine...they don't title their own dogs, how does he know what he's breeding, blah blah blah. Those folks paid their dues and reading a dog isn't a skill one forgets just because one stops competing. He would have been the first to tell you the competing successfully does not teach you how to breed or vice versa.

Breeding to big winners is parallel thinking to your idea that those with the most IPO success are the best breeders. You're not super experienced yourself, and you're advising a total novice. I think it's important to point out the opposite side of the coin in some of your thinking so the thousands of novices that read these threads don't take your ideas as gospel.

Yes the best breeders have consistent proven results on the field, thats more then gospel thats a fact.

Its amusing to me that you keep attempting to disparage me personally. 

(Deleted the other stuff, even though I was within my rights to post it, too nasty for my taste. I will just let my training and dogs do the talking)

You keep talking about breeding like doing it gives you some kind of credability. It doesnt, any idiot with a male and female can do that.

So like I have said before Jenni, show me your dogs and training and Ill show you mine. I have a dog I am competing with now, Ill show my training with him and you can show us the training of the last dog you competed with.
Then we can let people come to their own conclusions of who knows what.

This is what the novices need to understand if they are serious about a working dog. TALK is CHEAP put up or shut up.  

Lots of talkers with no actual work or dogs behind what they say.

I guess it depends on which field and what sport that is talked about .. IPO is certainly not a sport that produces great breeding dogs via competition. IPO is a competition based on artificial and inconsequential rules and style points. Great German Shepherds are bred by dedicated breeders not by IPO competitors .. almost all of the dogs competing in GSD IPO contests at the so called "championship level" in the USA are imported dogs. The rest and the majority of IPO dogs at the Championship level in the USA and at the IPO championships are Malinois not GSD. The OP wanted to know about inbred GSD for sport but the truth is that inbreeding dogs to win at IPO or any sport is a fool's errand just as breeding dogs to win sport titles is. If anyone wants to compete in a sport then have at it but don't pretend you are doing it for the betterment of dogs. The cheapest and most idiotic talk comes from those attempting to suggest that their dogs from any sport are the best of the best as the truth is they are not. Dogs can be selected and trained to be good at a particular sport but just as world caliber soccer players can't be successful in the NBA there are dogs best suited to one sport that will not do well in others. Biting a jute sleeve or a bite suit doesn't make a dog elite or a great breeding choice.

The thing with breeding great dogs is that you have to place them in the right hands in order to get to the highest level. A great dog will not go far in the hands of a novice, or a novice that doesn’t have the right guidance to take that dog to a high level. Breeders tend to not give much, if any, credit to the handler/trainer. Handler/trainers tend to return the favor. I’ve seen breeders post about a granddog from a dog they’ve bred that has made a high level championship, without giving any information on who the handler/trainer is or even mentioning that the following two breedings weren’t done by them. Most professional trainers (for working purposes) and high placing sport trainers can take almost any dog to a high level or teach it to do the job. Sure, there have to be strong enough nerves to do the job, and some resemblance of drive to want to do the work, but in general, a mediocre dog in a gifted trainer’s hands will accomplish the job.

The majority of breeders aren’t looking to breed world champions. Most of them just get by with producing decent pets that aren’t out to kill everything that moves. A breeder’s success these days seems to be based more on lack of negative reviews and less on proven working/sport dogs. Most place in what is now commonly referred to as an “active pet home” and I’ve spoken with many that prefer that home over a high level working or sport home because it reduces the chance that the dog will get rehomed. Puppies are sold based on no negative reviews and word of mouth between pet owners, WUSV teams and national competitions don’t matter much to the majority of puppy buyers. Breeders know this and therefore as long as the pedigree is solid, the dogs in front of them are solid, they’ll breed them and produce pets that the public will be more than happy with. Most breeders won’t go two generations without a working title, but that is mostly because then you completely eliminate the sport market and also those that visit a forum or two and get pushed towards titled parents by other “active pet homes.”

The reason the highest level competitors in the United States are usually imports is that they are allowed to grow up and aren’t sold at 8 weeks old. Those highest level competitors aren’t messing around with an 8 week old puppy that can show drive one day and then be a complete dud the next. Dog culture and societal influences don’t allow many US breeders to keep dogs in kennels for months with little to no interaction to produce those green dogs that that small market looks for. On top of that, that market is so small that it’s a huge risk for a breeder to hold back a dog hoping that one of those people will notice it and purchase it. Easier to sell the puppy at 8 weeks and be done with the process.

I’m not sure in what world malinois are the majority of dogs at the “championship level.” They are still the minority. The ones that compete with the German Shepherds on that level can again be attributed more to the handler/trainer than the breed or the breeder. Look at the podiums at the championship events, it’s not the dog that is the constant. Also compare the national level championship entries, malinois are not the majority, not by a long shot. This is very simple information to find, especially since the two breed championships are about a month apart and we’re right in the middle of both.

B Wagon, very good post and you made points that the majority of breeding conisours/no- experience- in -breeding always seems to recite....that the dogs from lines bred with extreme prey drive and that usually lack the ability to chill, are the only dogs capable of 'lPO' .
Most novices looking to get involved in IPO could not handle a dog bred with high level competition as the goal. Any decent gsd whether its from GSL or WL or a combination of them, is going to be good for the novice who wants to PARTICIPATE in the sport of IPO at club level. If all breeders bred for the extreme high prey drive gsd that one finds in the upper competition level, the breed would soon become in danger of extinction like the smooth fox terrier.
Further, the pup going to live with a family with small children and where there is not an expert, highly experienced trainer/handler, must have impeccable nerves, temperament, bidability and instincts. In other words, the gsd pup in a 'pet' home must be the quintisential German shepherd...not the bottom of the barrel reject that can't be trained for IPO or walk with the owner in town without going ballistic over unfamiliar sights and sounds. There are worse fates for a gsd than living with a family...like the six year veteran gsd in sc last week sent into the woods after known armed kids who shot and killed him. ( that tragedy was spurred by a hoax 911call for car jacking that didn't happen). To me, the pup that succeeds as a family dog is also good enough to succeed in most any venue depending on the course the training takes.

I see quite the opposite, and although I’m all for dogs that can participate in IPO at a club level, the majority of dogs being bred today aren’t capable of IPO even at that level. They simply don’t have the drives to do it. I’m not for super high prey drive dogs, I like a balance in my dogs, but I want that balance to be at a high level. Too many German Shepherds today don’t have the drive required to successfully title in the sport. I think it’s way too far of a stretch to claim that a dog that succeeds as a family member can succeed in any sport venue. A lazy, no drive, no want-to-do anything dog is a great pet, it is not a great German Shepherd and would not do sport. I’ve seen way too many people bring their dogs out to club, train for a few months, realize their dogs are lacking and they’ll never accomplish even the lowest levels of achievement in the sport and quit, more than likely forever. Sad really when you think about how small the sport is and that it could use all the people it can get. It’s rare to find people with the interest and the commitment to do IPO, and when their dog fails them due to the inherent genetics of their dog, it’s a sad situation and only the breeder is to blame.

In any case…a breeder who hasn’t titled a dog in 2-3 decades, or a line that hasn’t been titled in 2-3 generations can easily lose the ability to do the sport even on a novice level. Too many people believe they have the ability to read a dog and tell you right away that it’s capable of IPO and I’ve seen many of those people place puppies who end up washing out of a club because they just aren’t. Most of these people are only able to do this because the people they’re selling to…know even less than they do. They’re your “active pet home interested in doing sport” who are easily sold by seeing a dog show incrementally more drive than the neighborhood lab or whatever their childhood dog was. I’ve also seen these same people try to compete after years away and not come anywhere close to their past abilities. It’s just a natural progression that people *with experience* (age) tend to ignore…when you stop comparing what you have in front of you with what else is out there on a neutral field without biased eyes…you’ll lower your own bar. So eventually, that dog that might’ve been national level, is now a regional level dog that “would be national if I put more time into it,” and then that regional level dog becomes a club level dog that “would go to regionals if I wanted it to,” and then eventually that club level dog becomes a dog that bites a sleeve once a week in their own back yard that “would easily get a title if I had the time,” and so on and so on until the dogs aren’t capable of doing anything.

And yes…there are handfuls of breeders who continue to breed without working/titling dogs by importing titled dogs or successful pedigrees and still producing dogs that work at lower levels. But like I stated earlier…that’s not very difficult when the majority of your customer base will never work the dogs and just want a solid nerved dog. Just interesting to compare those types of breeders to the kennels in Europe which consistently produce club, regional, national, and WUSV team dogs while also placing plenty in successful pet homes without issue. There are kennels that are connected to 5-6 dogs each on various teams at the WUSV this year. Just an interesting observation.

PS…your incorrect spelling of connoisseur and also the assumption that I have no experience in breeding shows me enough about your credibility and more than likely knowledge and appreciation of true working dogs and why you believe and repeat the statements you’ve made.

IPO is a game just like football ( American or soccer ), basketball, baseball, tennis or competition ice skating. Proficiency in a sport does not indicate any superiority in genetics, intelligence or athleticism for all sports or all endeavors. I have never seen a more arrogant and idiotic group than those who insist that a GSD not at least "passing" in IPO is unfit for breeding. It is the apex of human stupidity to equate success or failure in a game with intelligence, athleticism, or genetic breeding qualities.

The German team at the 2015 FCI IPO championships ( the real world championship of IPO if one exists??) was composed of 5 Mals, 1 Dutch shepherd, and 1 Giant Schnauzer  .. not a single GSD on the German team. 

http://www.fciwm2015.ch/deutsch/teilnehmer-d-e-f/deutschland/

And which breed won the 2015 FCI IPO championship? How about we go through every team and list off what breeds its composed of. Also, lets list the other championships happening in and around the time of the FCI Championship and figure out if any of the GSD that compete at those championships would've qualified for the FCI Championship but just chose not to go or compete because the other championship was more important to the handler.

I love pick and choose statistics/facts.

US Team...made up of 2 GSD and 2 Malinois, and one of the GSD would've made the WUSV team as an alternate but decided to go to the FCI instead. What if the 5 dogs that finished ahead of that dog would've tried to qualify for the FCI instead of the WUSV? Might've limited the malinois there.

I also quite enjoy the name calling innuendos. Quite skilled in how you do that.